63 Identifying Touch Points to Boost Customer Service - Debra Wyatte Jun 2 2021

Greg Bray:  [00:00:00]Hello everybody and welcome to today's episode of the Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine 

Kevin Weitzel : and I'm Kevin Weitzel with Outhouse. 

Greg Bray: And we are excited. I did today to welcome to the show. Debra Wyatte, the Chief Experience Officer at Cecilian Partners. Thanks for joining us, Debra and welcome.

Debra Wyatte: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. 

Greg Bray: Well then why don't you take just a minute and introduce yourself to us and help us get to know you a little bit better. 

Debra Wyatte: Yeah, Greg, Kevin and pleasure. Like I said, my name is Debra Wyatte. I am the Chief Experience Officer with Cecilian Partners. [00:01:00] And what that means is my role with the company is really to elevate the customer experience in real estate with our team members, whether that's identifying technology for our partners to use what it looks like holistically on the customer journey.

All of that stuff when it comes to real estate, but really diving into the master-planned communities and the multiple builders and what that experience looks like for consumers today, 

Kevin Weitzel : that was way too much business introduction. I need some, I need some personal dirt. I need some hidden talents, something that somebody is going to learn about you just by listening to the podcast, 

Debra Wyatte: uh, learn about me.

So, random, I am one of those rare people that was born with a tooth, not very many people know that. So I was the cool kid up until like six years old, because I'd already lost a tooth in kindergarten. Like that was beyond, you know, that type of thing, other things worth noting. I'm an avid cyclist.

I want a cycling team [00:02:00] here in Boulder, Colorado and sing a dance. so my husband mountain bikes, I am a road cyclist and a gravel enthusiastic. 

Greg Bray: okay. I already know you're going to give me the incorrect answers. The proper answer is camping alone, but Shimano or scram. What camp are you in?

Debra Wyatte: Shimano

 Kevin Weitzel: Well, one day you'll step up to the plate and, and make your life just bring you to an elated state by riding campus. 

Debra Wyatte: okay. All right. I'll look into it and I'll trust you. I just need to be sponsored by them and maybe I'll consider it.

Kevin Weitzel: I'll do I'll beat your pit boss. When you come to Arizona.

Greg Bray:  Kevin's big cyclers, Debra he's big into it.

Kevin Weitzel:  I'm now just a big cycler in the eighties. I was a professional cyclist and also an Olympic gold ADA for the Korean Olympics. That's not what I meant by big site. [00:03:00] Me. Like when I eat in front of Greg, he looks at me like, Is he really gonna eat that entire sandwich and he shakes his head in that disapproving manner. 

Debra Wyatte: Yeah. Well, we'll have to schedule, right.

Kevin Weitzel: We'll have to, sorry. Sorry about the tangent there

Greg Bray:  All right. Well on this back to home building Debra, if we can tell it, tell us more about kind of your journey into the real estate and home building industry and how you got started.

Debra Wyatte: Yeah. So my journey started well over. Almost 15 years ago now, started off on the experience side of residents that lived in master plan communities. I worked with the notorious HOA side of what happens post-purchase but really my role and kind of where I cut my teeth was on. What was called a lifestyle director.

So I was the cruise ship director of a master plan community and started in 2009. So as you can imagine the experience in 2009 of buying a home and, or keeping your home was a little different than what it is today. And so looking [00:04:00] back, it was very interesting, but. How I was able to work with the sales team there and our builder partners in that community to help them drive traffic to community where there was not traffic out there like today.

Right. And so making a lot out of nothing. I mean, my annual budget for the year for events was $6,000, so $500 bucks a month, which is nothing.  but we were able to have over a hundred events that year for the residents and prospects to come and actually experience the community and what made it different from its competition.

So that's where I come in.

Kevin Weitzel: Can you say  that again? You were doing that all with what budget?

Debra Wyatte:  Yeah, no, we'll just say no budget pretty much. 

Greg Bray: Yeah. That's no budget. I mean, there's cookie platters from the grocery store or something, but I mean, it's 

Debra Wyatte: exactly like 

Kevin Weitzel: Were you chopping up Oreos into like, you know, eight sections and say, here's your thanks for coming.

Debra Wyatte: Yeah. Well, I mean, they were great events, but you had to get scrappy. You had to find sponsorships and, or [00:05:00] find ways for vendors to try to get exposure and give you in kind donations to offset the food cost. It's so it was very, it was very interesting to say the least, thankfully I can report today.

Well, over a decade plus later, that lifestyle director has more than $6,000 because there was a lot of interest in excitement and engagement from the community. So they lowered in that realm. 

Greg Bray: Yeah, two, 2009 was a tough year. I. I remember it was a tough year now, 2020. It was a tough year in a whole different way, but you know, there's that well, Debra, tell us a little bit more then about, you know, what you're doing today and how Cecilian Partners, you know, works and what kind of services you guys.

Debra Wyatte: Yeah. So Cecilian Partners really are kind of core principle is really about transforming the customer experience in real estate. From the new home purchase side, new home construction by really leveraging kind of three main components, human capital data and [00:06:00] technology. So we all know that technology is great, but if you don't know how to use it and you don't know how to get the benefits out of it.

Then what is it good for? So really we're kind of holistically all kind of championed in our own unique roles and skillsets to really elevate that. Not only for the perspective buyer through the technology and interfacing. Consumer maps and things like that, but also in the operation side, if you think about the home building process and how many cooks are in the kitchens and vendors and contractors, and then trying to work with a master plan developer and getting your submittals for a new home sale.

And all of that stuff is very time consumer consuming. And paper intensive in manuals. So streamlining that. So people can actually speed up their sales cycle time, which in turn makes a better prospect process. And so that's really where we kind of sit in that space of prof tech. 

Greg Bray: So, to kind of [00:07:00] go a little deeper there, are you guys pulling together and saying here's the five off the shelf systems you guys should use to pull together?

Or are you providing software and technology to help, you know, that that you've created. 

Debra Wyatte: Yeah. So we have a platform it's called the XO and really we call it the XO. Yes. Like hugs and kisses, but it really is the marriage between experiential data. So the X and the consumer side and the operational data that happens.

So that's why it's called the XO. So yes, we have our own platform, but yeah. We also know there's other technologies out there that people have been using for a while, or they have some kind of legacy technology that they're working through. So our team is really sensitive to making sure that any of our clients, whether they're using our software, the XO or not, is that they're getting the most out of their technology and data.

And if they're not, what is out there for you to do so you can be more effective and efficient in your home building process today. 

Greg Bray: Okay. [00:08:00] So then when we talk about experience, how do you define customer experience? What do you mean? Cause I think that word can generate a lot of different visions for people write about what they think it really means.

And so as we dive in a little deeper, let's, let's have a definition baseline of what you mean by that. So, we're all talking about the same thing. 

Debra Wyatte: So my kind of baseline definition of customer experience is really the. How somebody is going to feel when they interact with you and what that looks like.

It's, you know, if we think customer service, there's typically a problem and it's more reactive and you provide the solution and you're kind of done. The customer experience is really, you know, all of those. Touches that you get with that customer and how they feel after did they feel like they walked into a model home and were welcomed with a smiling face or were you upset from the previous contract that just got canceled?

Unfortunately, you know, all of these factors play into that customer experience of the emotional [00:09:00] tie that somebody will remember you by, good or bad. And our, our goal is that it'll be a good one. So then they come back for more. 

Kevin Weitzel: So you're basically turning processes and, and just steps within the process of what a home builder offers into.

Great big hugs. Yeah, basically it provides the helps along the way. So it's not just a, oh yeah. I saw a floor plan. It's a, oh, I could see myself in that floor plan, looking at a map of a site. It's about all the fun things I can do on that site. 

Debra Wyatte: Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, if we think about all the other industries that we interact with, Like on a personal level, how do we, how do we bring that all into home building and purchasing home?

And so if you can react like interact with the map and actually see where your lot's going to be in correlation to a park or a school or a Trailhead, you can start to experience and get an idea of what that's going to feel like for your family. [00:10:00] From our side of the things too. If you think from home building.

If you drive through a community and you love a particular elevation or a color of a home, that's kind of excites you. And then you go through the process and you find out two to three weeks later that you can't have that elevation on that lot that you wanted, or that home color, because the big bad developer said no because of their anti repetition anti-monopoly rules.

And so allowing that kind of fluid. Kind of single source of truth, which is what our platform does, but it allows the, it empowers the sales agent to sit down and go, okay, Debra, we know you love the slot and you're really excited about this farmhouse architecture. Let's see if we can actually get it here and run through the steps in lifetime and go, okay.

Sorry, you can have the farmhouse, but you can't have it in this light gray. You can have it in these other colors, or if you're really like stone, like you got to have it set in stone. Let's [00:11:00] go find you a lot where you can actually have that. But if you want the slot with open space near closest to the dog park, because your dog needs the activity, you know, it just opens up that experience versus like, this is what we got.

Sorry. 

Greg Bray: Yeah. Figuring out how to, how to find a yes. Even when you can't give them what they want is, is really part of that. Isn't it. So, Debra, you mentioned that you kind of specialize in the master plan community space as compared to some of the other types of communities. I know there's a lot of master plan communities where there's multiple builders involved.

Is that kind of, the ones that you work there or are you more in a single builder type of scenario? And I guess I'm asking, because I can see how that experience when you've got multiple builders, kind of all interacting in the same community. Trying to merge those experiences together seems like it could be a bit of a challenge.

And so is that a challenge you've experienced in tackled before? 

Debra Wyatte: Yeah, absolutely. So to, so to answer your question yes, [00:12:00] we, we do both. We work with communities that have, you know, A handful of builders all the way up to 17 builders. And so managing all of those processes and everything else and trying to help them create a consistent experience across all of those builders.

And then we also work with one set they're the sole builder, but they're still have their internal processes of. Arc and trying not to have every single house look the same and kind of streamlining that process because they, to what the end consumer your prospective buyers to be able to interact with live and then taurine and see where homes are.

And so. But to answer that kind of, the second part of that question is there's definitely, you know, a lot of thought and energy that go into these visions of the community and the experience of when you're going to live there and what kind of initially draws them. And so we really try to make sure that, that communication piece stays consistent, even post-purchase as well, 

Kevin Weitzel: 17 builders in a master plan [00:13:00] community.

Let me just paint a quick picture for you. 17 builders, every builder out there thinks they have a unique experience in their customer services, exemplary and yada yada, yada, you know, they, they beat their own bongos. However, you are, you are inevitably going to you run into that one builder. That is just horrible.

They have a bad experience there. Their marketing paraphernalia is just. Not it's just unsightly garbage. Do you, how much influence does selling partners have in saying, Hey. Have you ever thought about doing this or do you just kind of minimize them in that mastermind community experience? 

Debra Wyatte: Well, we wouldn't want to minimize them by any means, but I know so sorta, it's kind of put some context.

What we have the capability of is to really give our developer clients and our builders, the opportunity to see themselves in the community. So if I'm. The underperforming builder, not only am I going to be able to see it on my dashboard is kind of like, where are the other [00:14:00] builders are as far as sales and like how many leads they're getting from the map?

Like, why aren't I hopefully they're, smart enough to kind of want to know those answers, but from the developer side, you can also see, okay, I've got seven builders that are about ready to get out. And this one hasn't even sold two homes in the last two weeks. What is happening. And so we can kind of formulate those conversations and get a faster, more proactive or approach versus waiting for the data to come in and, you know, last week sales that you get four weeks later and we can kind of help them and assist them in saying, okay, You're the reason why you're not getting more leads on the map is because you don't have really good photos of your, of your homes.

Like, let us help you get there and let's talk through it and maybe provide them some specific consulting on, you know, what their customer journey looks like. You know, if you walk into the model home, right. On a Saturday afternoon, I'd see somebody eating a cheese sandwich. That's not the best impression.

Like [00:15:00] maybe you should go off into an office and enclose your door and help them better understand where their misses are. And that's where our developer clients can kind of lean on us to kind of help them and give them a different experience based off of what we can bring. 

Greg Bray: So to pull this a little bit more from a digital standpoint, Debra when you start talking about bringing multiple builders together like this, just from a web presence, standpoint and consistency and various assets and things, what are, what are some of the challenges does that you see across?

Cause, you've got to see all types of efforts, I guess you could say, and those interest and willingness to invest in those areas. So just what are some of the things that you've seen there? 

Debra Wyatte: Yeah, so, it is very interesting because we have over 35 different builders and over 300 different users from a builder perspective on our, on the platform.

And so we, we go from big national public builders all the way down to kind of. Semi-custom [00:16:00] custom homes on the platform and to see how they all interact and even on a regional level, state level, you know, from the national builders that we have, how much engagement they have and in hesitation to it, but really where we see, you know, our adoption is right.

We really focus on their experience and helping themselves faster. And so once we get through that initial hurdle of, okay, the developer wants us to do what we have to submit things, how, and this is how you're going to track sales. Yes. But the reason behind it is because you're actually going to see an increase of time from an arc review, go from three weeks to maybe three days.

Or you're going to get an instant warning that you can't build that house there before you even submit that arc. So it's going to help you create a better experience, not only for you and your mental anguish of getting through this process, um, but also for your in buyer. And that's really where we see a lot of consumer and [00:17:00] builder adoption, and we have 99% that are on it.

The little sprinkles are more of like the super custom ones that really just track their sales in it. 

Greg Bray: Okay. And how does that layer and kind of earlier in the funnel from a lead generation standpoint, where they're all kind of working together to drive traffic to the community as a whole, because, you know, obviously there's this interesting little dynamic there of.

You know, working together, but competing right within this community that, that comes up with these master plan communities. Any thoughts on how they kind of that lead generation standpoint? 

Debra Wyatte: Yeah. So typically, you know, if we think, if we're looking at, you know, Wyatte Ranch, you know, it's beautiful, everybody's gonna want to live there.

Myself included. But if you think about like that marketing website, the initial one where you're kind of capturing all of those builders that you have it. So not only are you going to have your standard kind of general info list that you're going to put into your CRM, but from the interactive [00:18:00] map that.

Prospective buyer can actually go through and click on lots and review them and request more information for whichever lot and whichever builder that they're interested in it. So if we think about the information that's getting collected, their name, their email, et cetera, when they hit submit that goes directly to that builder and says, okay, Debra Wyatte's interested in your community.

She wants this lot, these are the filters that she put on as far as price point, here's her contact information. So it's a stronger lead than just a general info. I want to know more. It's a, I want to know more about this specific lot and maybe I'll submit a couple because I'm just interested in this floor plan or elevation.

But if as a consumer, I can go directly to that builder with what specifically I'm interested in versus. Going into the one big funnel and then you get all nine, 10 builders, all emailing you, and you're just like, stop, stop the emails, stop the texts. [00:19:00] I was just curious, my friend moved in and I want to know more.

That's all.  

Greg Bray: How have you seen buyer expectations change and evolve over the last little bit, especially with this increase in digital technologies that builders have available. 

Debra Wyatte: It's definitely evolved. I'm sure you guys have heard, and I'm probably not the first, but it feels from an industry standpoint, we have leaked about five years.

We've still at least got another five or 10 to actually catch up to other markets that have been leveraging technology in this way really well for a long time. And so I think the, the big jump has been because consumers have been wanting. This experience from being able to know what's going on, be able to shop from a soccer game on the sidelines, you know, or from a baseball game and be able to book in lifetime and everything else.

And so the idea of that digital experience getting brought up to [00:20:00] speed has, you know, obviously come a long way and I think there's more to happen. And I think it'll, it'll definitely continue to change and evolve, but what's not going to change is the ability to actually connect. The home buying experience with somebody in having somebody navigate through you like you through that process.

So, you know, sales agents more than ever, should really be focusing on their personal experience to that journey. So then they're not just, oh, well, I got all this information online. Like why do I need to come in and meet with you? And having more of that emotional connection because buying a homeless.

One of the biggest purchases somebody makes in their lifetime. And to think that you can actually have a better experience buying a very expensive handbag. 

Kevin Weitzel: So you're really wanting to cultivate that experience to provide a much longer. Reward, not just the elation of buying a [00:21:00] home or sometimes the very long process of buying home.

But something that they will have a positive experience, their entire life based on that original experience of that builder. 

Debra Wyatte: Yeah. I mean, if you think about it, you move in and then you're going to live there forever, you know? So if you've had a good experience in that in the front end and there's potentially home warranty issues or things like that.

Yeah. Typically more proactive and sympathetic and working with that developer, or I'm sorry, that builder per se, of getting the issues resolved, versus if you had a terrible experience, you know, and everything else ahead of time, and then there's a warranty issue. And then you're like send up the fire because this is about to get ugly, you know?

So it's, it's those types of things that can help them, you know, live longer, healthier lives in their homes once they're there. And ideally as a home builder, You want them to think of you the next time they go out to look for a new home, whether it's in that community or across the country, you want that, that [00:22:00] experience to continue with them.

And you'd be a part of it. 

Kevin Weitzel : Number one, a hundred percent agree. And number two and full disclosure, I lifted that line and that question directly from your LinkedIn profile. 

Debra Wyatte: you're welcome. I answered what I said 

Kevin Weitzel: and you're right, right. To the point even. Yeah. Love it.

Greg Bray: So Deborah, I'm a builder. I'm like, yeah.

You know what? My customer experience is probably not ideal. Where do I even begin? What do I look at first? If I just want to make that better? 

Debra Wyatte: Well, you know, I, I think, where do you start? I think it all comes down to kind of what your brand is trying to speak to. I know, you know, if we think about the home, it's, it's something that somebody goes and needs to feel safe.

So I think trying to get people to fully understand the impact of the home buying purchase, if it's not that great. Right. But I think right now where we're seeing home builders kind of struggling. It's just [00:23:00] because of the demand of the market. Right now, I've heard multiple kind of leads of national builders saying, you know, their fear right now is they're starting to feel like order takers and their backlog is so long.

The art of selling a home. Doesn't take a whole lot of science right now. And so, you know, if we think about that from an experience side, typically, that means that, you know, do you want burgers and fries with that? That's not necessarily the best experience. People go to a sit-down restaurant because they want the service.

And so in a $15 burger, if I'm going to go down the burger and fry, right. But, I think that's where the kind of, if you're looking to kind of identify where to start, it's identifying your whole entire customer journey and where your pain points are and where the hiccups are. And are there ways that you and your team can actually identify opportunities to.

Be more [00:24:00] efficient and create less stress, whether it's leveraging technology or even having more transparency to the process, especially if in home building now with lumber and everything else is taking, you know, what used to be a six-month bill does. Now I've heard up to 18 months, from a bill process.

So you've got to nurture that prospective buyer in that contract for three times as long. And if you can't emotionally connect with them and know what they've got going on, and they've got kids entering school and what that process looks like, it can be a real struggle to keep that contract. 

Greg Bray: You know, your comment about order takers is interesting as well.

And yes, I'd like some fries with that, but, I see a risk in that just kind of thinking about, as you said, that if this market continues as it is for the while, that will become our normal mode of operation. And then all of a sudden when whatever happens is going to happen, where this [00:25:00] backs off a little bit.

You know, if we haven't paid attention to that experience and those we're going to have all these bad habits, so to speak that are going to become kind of our normal process and all of a sudden it's not going to work anymore because it's based on a certain level of demand. And just the fact that I can move on to the next one, because there's a lot, 

Debra Wyatte: right?

Yeah. I was going to say, oh, go ahead. Oh, no. Yeah, no worries. So what I would say to that is, is absolutely. If you think about somebody who has been in the home sale industry and really understands the experience and connects with their buyers and, you know, has sold them multiple homes or is willing to go the extra mile of knowing, Hey, it's an 18 month process and you're actually relocating here.

I know some people that have short-term rentals, like helping them get on their feet. Helps that whole buying process. But if you think about those tenured people who have been [00:26:00] doing it and who have, you know, had been through the first go round and a really fine tuned it, I think where, where it's going to lead as a fracture in that company's culture, right?

Because somebody else with less tenure can come in and hit the exact same sales quota and the exact same goals with less care. And you know, when the things start to shift. Has has your company culture actually been fractured because you haven't been able to keep the consistency, keep the experience across to all of your salespeople, because you've been going so fast, 

Kevin Weitzel: I'll take some chili and cheese on my fries, just so you know, I think you're right on it because I think that home builders are so stuck on.

Wanting to move to this automated process, to that instant buy now button that I think that they need to tread on some delicate waters and some dull, delicate land, and the fact that they need to make sure that they maintain that, [00:27:00] that company culture and that process, because I think that so many of them are abandoning it for this quick sell instant sell process.

Debra Wyatte: Yeah. And if you think of how savvy consumers are, I mean, home builders are on. Google reviews and Yelp, and like they're out there and they're not pretty. And even the ones that tell that they give amazing experiences, they average about, I think it's like 2.8 out of five stars, like really buy anything.

I wouldn't order a restaurant. That was 2.5 now. Yeah. 

Kevin Weitzel: From a Balance standpoint. Where do you help the builder in seeing that road? That vision, because their consumers are, you know, and they hate to say the name Amazon, because they're an evil empire, but you know, everybody's shopping on Amazon where they don't want to deal with salespeople.

They don't want to deal with any process. They just want the information. They want to hit the easy button. They want to put their credit card in and they want to buy, so why do we need to maintain that company culture? 

Debra Wyatte: So, [00:28:00] yes, I'll consumers definitely. That's how we shop right. Even more. So now, I mean, prior to the pandemic

I never ordered groceries. And now I'm a believer of ordering groceries. It's so easy and so convenient. And so I think it's that meeting the consumers where they're at, but also being there for the information that the consumers still need. Right. You, yes, you can buy a home sight unseen and everything else, but they're still gonna want that emotional connection of.

Seeing their home site, seeing the frame go up, seeing the sighting, getting a virtual tour, you know, there's those things that as a sales person, it is a company culture that you can kind of instill that we care. Yes, you sold a home. We're probably very rarely going to actually interact, but we want you to know that when you get there, we're going to take these steps to make sure that your home is exactly what you wanted.

And I'm going to go in on a Sunday before we open to do a walkthrough with you. You know, it's those types of things that I think [00:29:00] really kind of elevate that experience, especially when consumers are going more of a digital, digital route. 

Greg Bray: Well, Deborah, we really appreciate the time you spent with us today.

We want to be respectful of your time. Just a few more questions as we kind of wrap up. So just kind of looking ahead, are there any particular trends that you're watching or feel like we should all be paying attention to that you're getting ready for? 

Debra Wyatte: Yeah, so I think really from a trend standpoint, especially on the home builder side, There's a couple in regards to, you know, in-home technology and how it all communicates and that type of thing.

Obviously there's plenty out there, but I think it's just going to be more and more internet of things that are internet of things that actually benefit you from a health and wellbeing in your home. If we think about the most recent study of the American at home, The study that came out in the various things that consumers are looking for in how has home builders can kind of take a little bit of insights from that [00:30:00] study and incorporate it into their home to actually, you know, do some updates in various ways of how people are wanting to live now.

 I think that's another trend that's going to just start to continuously evolve over the next, probably couple of years as home builders, start to identify ways to kind of. Communicate their built environment and how they're building to actually make a healthier home for you and your family, because there are some best practices out there that builders are doing every day, but they're just not sharing it with consumers.

It's so I think that's going to be one, that's going to be a game changer in the future. 

Greg Bray: No, for sure. So if you have just one last piece of advice that you want to leave with everybody today that we haven't touched on yet, what, what's your grand giveaway? 

Debra Wyatte: My grand giveaway of advice.

You know, from the experience side of things, my grant advice would be to look at other markets and not like. You know, some markets of where you're building, but look at other [00:31:00] industry markets. So hospitality, retail, you know, other big markets where consumers spend a lot of time and identify ways that they're actually spending their time.

And I, identifying how you can incorporate those practices and where consumers are at, you know, the other 80% of their time when they're not buying a home. So that way, when they come to purchase a home, it's familiar, it's organic and then identify how you can layer in the best experience to that customer journey.

Kevin Weitzel: That's a ridiculously good answer. However, completely missed the opportunity to say that every individual on the planet should put camp Sinolo equipment on their bikes. How did you miss that opportunity?

Debra Wyatte:  I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You know, then there'd just be more cyclists. I mean, I'm all for more cyclists and bike safety, so 

Greg Bray: yeah.

Well, Debra. If somebody wants to connect with you, learn more about Cecilian Partners, what's the best way to get in touch. Yeah, 

Debra Wyatte: absolutely. So if you want to connect with me, obviously I'm [00:32:00] on LinkedIn, Debra Wyatte. We can connect there. I'd love to love to get to know you. Sicilian Partners is easily found @sicilianpartners.com where you can go in and learn more about our team, the XO, our software solution, and schedule a demo.

If you want to learn more. 

Greg Bray: Well, thank you so much, Debra for joining us. We really appreciate your time today and thank you everybody for listening to the Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine

Kevin Weitzel: and I'm Kevin Weitzel with Outhouse. Thank you.  

Debra Wyatte: Thank you.