42 Complacency in 2021 is Rubbish - Russ Stephens Jan 6 2021

Greg Bray:  [00:00:00] Welcome everybody to another exciting episode of the Homebuilder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine

Kevin Weitzel: and I'm Kevin Weitzel with Outhouse.

Greg Bray: Today we are excited to welcome as our guest Russ Stephens, the co-founder of the Association of Professional Builders. Welcome Russ.

Russ Stephens : Hey, thank you so much, guys.

I'm really excited and looking forward to chatting with you.

Greg Bray: Well, Russ, for those who haven't met you yet why don't you give us that quick introduction of who you are and kind of what you've [00:01:00] been doing.

Russ Stephens : Sure. So my name is Russ Stephens. I'm the co-founder, one of the co-founders of the Association of Professional Builders.

So we are a business coaching operation operating out of Australia, but with members all over Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the USA, and we are here to improve the residential construction industry for both builders and consumers through systemization.

Greg Bray: Awesome. So where are you today in Australia for those who aren't familiar you today?

Russ Stephens : Greg I'm on the gulf coast. She's just about an hour South of Brisbane in the state of Queensland. So it's probably probably one of the best spots in Australia to be beautiful

Kevin Weitzel: Better than Perth?

Russ Stephens : Perth is the other side of the country. It's just so much like another country for us, or they don't sell those guys that cause they get a bit upset, but it's a long, long way away.

Greg Bray: Well [00:02:00] Blue Tangerine Russ has an office in Melbourne, Florida. So, you know, we, sometimes get a little bit of confusion with people searching for Melbourne type of things where they think they're closer to you than they are to us. But you know so let's run into that a little bit since Melbourne's probably one of the only things I know about Australia.

Russ Stephens : So I'm from the UK originally enough to growing up in the UK confusing, finding all the the city and town names appearing in other parts of the world all over the U S and Australia. Can't be right, but so we've had to get used to that.

Greg Bray: Well, Russ, tell us something a little bit more, you know, personal about yourself.

Something that maybe everybody doesn't know, so we can get to know you a little better.

Russ Stephens :  I spent my weekends driving around in circles, I used to race sports cars in the UK and now I've, I've got a track car, so I don't actually race, but to spend the weekend driving around in circles.

Trying to go with that little bit quicker. So I guess the thing I think I like about that [00:03:00] is is there's a lot of data involved and yeah. That kind of a appeals to a certain side of me, which I applied to business as well. So yeah, that's probably something that not many people know

Kevin Weitzel: Now, are we talking about, open-wheel like K car F cars, what kind of car are we talking?

Russ Stephens : Ah, okay. So I used to race a one series made called Radical, which is a UK sports car. They have a series in the US Australia the UK and other parts of the world now as well. So that was a, a fiberglass, a sports car just made for the track these days.

My track car is a little Toyota, 86, which is a a little two liter, normally aspirated, a two seater car, which I can drive to the track and and then drive around the track and then all being well-fed drive it back home again.

Greg Bray: That's that's fascinating. So, Russ, how do you go from race car drivers at the home building [00:04:00] industry?

How did you get into the home building industry?

Russ Stephens : Yeah. So race car driver, always a hobby and in the UK I spent my business career, I guess, building up an operation from selling out of the back of the van in South London to creating a wholesale operation that distributed all over the UK.

And always had a dream to move to Australia, both my wife and I had this dream to move to Australia. So in 2006, we sold up everything and moved to Australia from the UK. After a few years I came across the board product called Co-Construct, which I'm sure you guys are familiar with, but at the time there was only two builders in Australia using this platform and one in New Zealand.

When I came across it, I just thought, Wow. I'd already had some exposure to builders, so I knew the challenges that they were facing and I'd even been attempting to develop something myself using [00:05:00] some different components like Microsoft Dynamics. But when I came across Co-Construct I just, Wow, this blew my mind.

I thought every builder needs this product. So I contacted Donny Wire and got the rights to be the distributor I guess across Australia, New Zealand and the UK for Co-Construct and over the next few years we signed up over a thousand building companies to the Co-Construct platform, but it was from selling Co-Construct and helping builders get set up with Co-Construct.

We realized that operations was only one part of the problem and the one thing that builders kept telling me over and over, I need more leads. You know, they were really, really struggling and about this time the internet was really starting to have an effect and to change the sales process for every industry, not just builders and in turn the whole relationship on its head.

The supplier, the seller was no longer in control of the relationship. The buyer [00:06:00] had all the power, they had so much information at their fingertips and residential home builders were really struggling to come to terms with this. They were still advertising in yellow pages and trying to get leads that way and just spending more, doing the same thing, hoping to change the result.

So yeah, it was with that realization and we'd kind of developed a lot of ideas through online marketing in order to get builders on to Co-Construct. So I started sharing those ideas with builders and really enjoyed helping the guys with improving their website and then giving them tips in terms of of following up.

What that did was led to the launch of ACRA services, which was a digital marketing agency for residential home builders. So we would build websites with managed Facebook campaigns, Google ads, campaigns, search, engine optimization, and that was really enjoyable. But what we did realize is half the builders that we'd be generating leads for we're doing really well. Yeah. That was all they needed. But the other half of builders were still struggling and they [00:07:00] would say to us things like the leads are rubbish. These leads are no good. They're not as good as the leads I was getting before because they were used to referrals and they didn't quite understand a cold lead is very different to a warm lead.

You know, you need a robust sales process to do with those guys. So yeah. That led to the launch of ACRA sales training in 2014, which we set that up in order to train builders, how to sell, how to implement a sales process into a building company, how to develop those stages and KPIs and and take a cold lead through to a high margin contract rather than competing on price.

That was so successful so quickly that just grew straight out the box. And it was a year later that we realized that now we've got these guys that we're providing them with leads within providing them with the the process for selling, but we still had some guys that were struggling.

They were stressed out and they weren't earning any more money than they were before we did [00:08:00] we'd even hear things like, yeah, I was better off when it was just me and I was just doing six homes a year instead of 18. What it was, these guys had no time and they weren't really making the margins.

So at that point, we realized what these guys needed help with was the full solution. They needed help with marketing, with sales, but also operations and even self-development. That led to the launch of the association of professional builders in 2015, where we took on that challenge of helping builders to systemize their entire building company.

Greg Bray: So what is the right sized builder to be a member of this association? Is it for everybody or is there a certain kind of size where you find it's it's the best fit for being part of that?

Russ Stephens : Yeah, that's a interesting question because it's something we get a lot from builders, some guys feel, [00:09:00] I'm too big for the Association of Professional Builders. Yeah. I've been successful, my building company is doing 60, 8,000 million a year, but when we look into those companies, we always find gaps in the processes. One of the biggest gaps is the net margin. They're not hitting an industry benchmark yet margin.

That's something we're able to help them with. Other guys might have a large building company and they're looking to work less. And again, we can help them with systemizing their building company to a level where they can literally go part time. Then we get guys that are just starting out on the journey and some of these guys may think I just need to get up and running and then I want to join.

What we find is the best time to join the Association of Professional Builders. Is when you first start and we're getting a lot more builders do that. They're literally starting a construction business and they are [00:10:00] joining the Association of Professional Builders straight away, because in their own words, they want to do things correctly, right from the start.

I guess to answer your question, our sweet spot tends to be around the 3 to 6 million mark. But the key really is not the size of the building company, it's the goal, the desire because we can really only help the guys that want to improve and want to grow. We even have a say in actually which we kind of lifted from the the US Coast Guard. The us coast guard, they have a say in that they can only save the ones that swim towards them. It's the same for us, you know, we can only help the builders that swim towards us. You know you can have the best solutions in the world. 

Greg Bray: That's a great! And it's probably not trademark, so it was probably okay.

You stole it.

Russ Stephens : I don't know.

Greg Bray: Or if it is, its only trademarked in the U S and so you can steal it anyway. [00:11:00] Right. So how does the association work? You talked about, you know, the kinds of builders that join, but tell us a little bit more about the kind of the actual services you guys provide.

Russ Stephens : Sure. So we have two levels to our association, the the entry level, which is membership allows. Any builder really? It's at a level that any builder can join. Yeah. There's no barrier to entry there at all. And what that does that allows them to access the systems that we've developed for residential home builders, covering marketing sales, operations for construction financials, very big part.

And self-improvement as well. So they can access what we call action plans, which are step-by-step guides that allow them to implement a proven process into their building company. So for instance a builders number one challenge right now might be a recruitment they're struggling to attract the right [00:12:00] people with the right skillset.

So we have a recruitment process that they can implement into their building company. Which will allow them to recruit the right people, that it becomes a, maybe a process of retaining and motivating the team. So we'll have action plans, which allow them to implement the system for team meetings and appraisals.

 Another one might be construction. Financials is a big one because most builders that come to us when we actually look at their accounts they're not fully across their financials. So we give them the systems that allow them to produce accurate financial reports every month so that they know exactly where they are in terms of of their business.

So builders can join the Association of Professional Builders and access all of those systems and start implementing them into their building company. But a lot of guys want something more than that they want a one-on-one support. They they want some high level mentoring [00:13:00] and accountability really, which is a big part.

We offer that as part of our mentoring program, where they can work with one of our executive coaches who are based in Australia. The US and Canada as well. So they get to work one-on-one with a very, very experienced executive coach who has not only been successful in business themselves, and they understand exactly what the builder is going through.

They also have the systems and processes to guide that builder through on their journey. Typically the client, the guys that come in to this mentoring program, they're looking to take their building company to $10 million in revenue at 10% net after drawing a market salary now. Yeah, we don't just have a revenue target.

Everything we do with a residential building company is really focused on the net margin because too many building companies grow without proper regard [00:14:00] for their net margin. They simply take themselves into trouble over a period of time, so it's a combination of the three things you've got to pay yourself first.

You've got to be early enough. Good double digit margin and then we can scale the revenue and and really work this thing. And yeah, that's how you get the best out of life.

Kevin Weitzel: So it sounds like you are implementing in OKR scenario for them. I mean, objective and key results tactic. You know, where they have an objective of where they want to be, but to get those key results, they have to instigate, you know option a, B, C, D, and put them into place and have those operations.

And then from that result, they can find out if they've obtained their objective.

Russ Stephens : Correct. Absolutely spot on Kevin. Yes, we have in our mentoring program, we have 10 levels that we take the builder through. So they kind of understand the journey that they're going on because they have a wealth of systems that they can already access in the membership.

But that could become a little overwhelming. You [00:15:00] can't suddenly implement 42 systems into your building company that would take a few years. So you need to implement the right things in the right order. This is where the executive coach really comes into play because although we have our levels, we know fundamentally the path they need to take.

Every building company is unique, and every business owner is unique. They have their own strengths and weaknesses, and this is the executive coach's job is to identify those and take them on the correct path. That's going to get them to where they want to go quickly.  You know, as fast as possible.

Greg Bray: I love the idea of trust that it's not just signing up for some training classes. It's a lot more than that. It's not just getting a book of here's how you do it with all the processes kind of laid out for you, but that one-on-one coach to kind of guide you and figure out how to apply.

I think that's probably key to success, right? The ones that listened to their coach versus the ones that that don't. So I can imagine.

Russ Stephens :  [00:16:00] Yeah, absolutely be spot on. That's been in our DNA since we started, when we were setting builders up with Co-Construct. Yeah. We didn't just sell the product.

We took it upon ourselves to put in a customer service team that helped help clients that were signing up in Australia and New Zealand and the UK To adopt. Yeah, we would be there for them over and above the support they had from Co-Construct themselves. When we started providing digital marketing services, we didn't just do the work we would send through in depth reports and videos on exactly what we'd done the previous month and what we were doing, you know, the following map.

That's followed on into the association of professional builders. Like you say yeah, working with these guys closely rather than just giving them the system and the videos to follow. Yes, you gotta be there to answer questions and and encourage, and the guys do a great job of encouraging each other in their private members group as well, which is great to see.

Greg Bray: So, Russ just because [00:17:00] we want to stay true to our focus, being more on the marketing piece, you know, as opposed to some of the other parts of the building organization, let's maybe focus a little bit there on some of the things that you coach and train. Kind of in that part of the business, if you don't mind, you know, so where do you see kind of digital marketing and marketing as a whole fitting into that overall process?

Is that something that you see a lot of builders doing? Do you feel like there's a lot of room for improvement? Just kind of, what's your experience that you're seeing across your client base?

Russ Stephens : Yeah, digital marketing and marketing in general is a massive part of our program. It probably makes up for about 40%.

I would say of our training, which is probably gives you an indication of just how important it is in our eyes. One of the things we always tell builders is that margins are linked to marketing. I was talking about the margins, the industry benchmarks and where they should be, [00:18:00] but they're not going to get there by simply putting their prices up.

They've got to get their marketing right first, and as you guys know that takes time. It takes effort. It's not like flicking a switch. So we do start really with the fundamentals you know, with a building company, I'm really teaching them the basics because you've got to get your message right.

Yeah, before you can do anything there at all. Once you start explaining this targeting, who's your ideal client, you know, what's different about your building company? I always remember one of the first when it was actually providing Co-Construct and initially. I would drive out and meet builders in the Brisbane area.

 I walked into to meet this builder and and I said, what type of work do you do? You said building. And I said I've kind of looked at him. And he said, well, buildings building. And he said, sort of the same. And right straight I just knew this guy was, it was in trouble. Cause he didn't even know what his niche was.

He had no idea what you prefer doing. It was [00:19:00] basically I'll do anything for money and five years on, you know, the guy is still in the same position because he just wouldn't listen. So yeah, it's incredibly important to get those fundamentals correct. And understand who's your ideal client.

Yeah, watching these what's different. That enables you to become a specialist, obviously. They will shoot some their market correctly as well. But I guess one of the biggest things that we've seen is content marketing, you know, is probably one of the biggest things that we've helped our members with. Teaching them the power of content marketing, how important it is to to develop these stories, get that out on social media, get that on your blog and really we've seen it come up.

Just this year, especially with COVID hit in March. The guys that had followed this advice that had actually set up their content marketing strategies, they absolutely smashed [00:20:00] it. Not straight away in March. I mean, the consumers were consuming the information in March, April, May, June.

These guys just smashed it on on signing people into the sales process.

Kevin Weitzel: You know, it's interesting. I find it very strikingly important that you mentioned ideal client because more often than not, I hear builders will say, well, we want more leads, but they don't specify that they want more qualified or quality leads.

So I assume that your training goes into how to hone in those factors in those strategies. To get that ideal client and that, that optimal lead versus just butts in the seats because you know, anybody can put more butts in the seats. I mean, I can give away $5 coupons for free coffee all day long and get all the leads I want.

But how many of them are in the market to buy a house? You know.

Russ Stephens : Yeah, absolutely. The qualifying process is so important for builders. It's so important. It's actually broken into two training modules. There's the [00:21:00] initial qualifying, and this is the kind of thing that can be outsourced to an admin person as well, because you're asking closed questions and you're, probably going to be disqualifying 80% of the people straight away, because maybe they're not looking to build in your area.

Maybe they don't even have land. You know, that doesn't mean they're never going to be a fit, they're just not a fit right now and they need to go back into your lead bank and be nurtured for your marketing until the timing is right. But those close questions, those initial qualifies are incredibly important and they give you great feedback for your marketing and advertising because that will tell you if you're off track at all with maybe the channels you're using or the messaging you're using.

So very, very important step. The next step, which often gets overlooked is the discovery process, which we move on to open questions. This is what separates the winners from the losers in our industry. The guys that take the time, invest the time into [00:22:00] discovery and really understanding what's going to drive the emotional part of the decision.

These are the guys that not only win the contracts, they win the contracts at margin as well, because they're not competing against the rest of the pack.

Greg Bray: So Russ you mentioned the idea that some of these villages have been smashing it this year that they're doing well. We've seen a lot of that in the US too, or with builders really.

You know, running out of inventory selling well and it feels like there's a little bit of this idea. Well, I don't need the market right now. I don't need to keep pushing because I can't keep up with what's coming in the door already. What are your thoughts on that kind of idea that, gosh, I'm too busy.

Let's scale back this marketing and see what happens.

Russ Stephens : Yeah, I think we've always had this mentality to a certain extent, amongst a certain type of builder. And I kind of liked him, these guys that think like this they're [00:23:00] probably closer to being a sub-contractor than a general contractor or a home builder, because there's a mentality of get work, do the work, get paid and they're on this kind of cycle.

They're never looking ahead. But you look at the building companies that are growing that are truly successful because they're making double digit net margin. These guys are always looking way ahead into the distance. Yeah, I was talking to a builder in West Virginia a couple of weeks ago, he is now booked out his fill in the remaining couple of slots for 2021.

So yeah, he's almost booked out for the full year. Now he's looking at his plan and making the decision. Does he scale up and create more capacity for 2021 or does he as a focus on 2022 a builder in Australia? Who's one of our private clients. He came to us for help with developing his content marketing strategy [00:24:00] for the second half of 2021.

Because last year we built out a whole content strategy for him that ran from when did it start? It started in March this year and and runs right through to March next year. Now this guy is booked out for next year already, but he said his big concern now is 2022. He knows this boom won't go on forever.

And he's already thinking about the things he needs to put in place. So yes, you've got two different mindsets. You've got the mindset of get the work, do the work, get paid. And then you've got the business people looking beyond this boom that we're in and an understanding that it will be the survival of the fittest in 2022.

Greg Bray: Yeah, I think that's a great insight that the idea that we're marketing to the people that are just going to buy, you know, next week, as opposed to the ones who are going to buy next year it's both right. So we want to keep that message going and keep that pipeline getting filled because these [00:25:00] folks may not buy for another year or whatever.

Russ Stephens : Absolutely. So it's an extraordinary, long sales process for a custom home building company. Yeah. Even you know the guys that are maybe doing the simpler homes at half a million, that process can still ask for six months. And when you start moving into the more complex homes. Yeah, you could be in the sales funnel for over a year before the contract is started.

So it makes no sense at all to take your foot off the gas, you know, at this stage this really is a incredible opportunity. You know, for builders to create even more demand for their service, which allows them to increase their margins because that's the fundamental in business that we all forget in our own businesses because we're too close, but we've constantly got to be creating.

More demand for our service than we can supply and a lot of elders that speak to, you know I hear this, you know, they kind of get into [00:26:00] this mindset. I've got enough work now, unless you've got initiative and in people away, and you've got twice as much demand or supply, you don't have enough yet.

It's one of the fundamentals of our KPIs, really that as part of our private mentoring program, we use data-driven decision-making. We look at the KPIs in terms of advertising spend number of leads, generated cost per lead opportunities right through to concepts prelims. So we're measuring all these KPIs, but the key KPI is there must be twice as many prelims as contracts in order to get that ratio correct.

Yet, a lot of builders that when they first come to us. How many of the prelims go to contract all of them? Yeah. Well, that's no good

Kevin Weitzel: Russ, I don't care how fast of race car you build. If you don't think to bring tools and a supply of fuel to the track, you're not going to spinning laps on that track.

So it doesn't matter how fast.

[00:27:00] Russ Stephens : Absolutely right.

Kevin Weitzel: You can build a fantastic house, but if you don't put all the structure in place to market it, to develop it, to sell it, and all that, then you're going to build one house and you're done.

Russ Stephens : Yeah. And it's incredible. Obviously, we get a lot of feedback as well.

Comments on Facebook and you can kind of see this this mentality when you start talking about the fundamentals of marketing and the importance of creating more demand, which involves advertising, you know, you. Cannot scale a building company on referrals. Yeah. It's a fact. You can only get to a certain level in any business on, on referrals, but so many people are of the mindset, but it's you just need to do a good job and your business will grow.

Yeah. Unfortunately, no, it won't. Best product does not win in this day and age. So does it is, yeah, that, that is a fact of life.

Greg Bray: So Russell, what are, what are some of common mistakes that you see builders making when they, when they do try to do the [00:28:00] marketing? Anything that just kind of jumps out that you see across builders?

Russ Stephens : Yes. In terms in, you know, in terms of their marketing efforts, some of the most common mistakes that we see builders making is engaging contractors to deliver a service for them, such as Facebook management or Google or SEO, they just want more leads. So they go to one of these agencies. And they engage them and they, they haven't performed any of the, the basics.

First. They haven't identified who their avatar is, who they are this year is they haven't developed a unique selling proposition, which gives them a point of difference in the market. And most of all, they're not even giving the prospect a reason to opt in by using something like a lead magnet, you know, a downloadable guide because.

When we used services like Facebook and Google display network what we're doing is we're using interruption marketing. [00:29:00] So these people are, I've been thinking about designing a new home, but they're not quite ready. So unless we give those guys a reason to opt into our data base, they're simply going to read the information and move on until they find a builder that is giving them a reason to opt in.

So you've got those fundamentals in place and the problem is because they don't have those basics in place that I mentioned they are. We'll spend a lot of money generating very low quality leads, even if they do have some good quality leads opted in, you know, from that marketing process, if they don't have a sales process, A proven sales process that works.

Those leads won't convert. Doesn't matter how good they are, because the truth is a cold lead is very different to a warm lead. I, a referral, has shortcutted the decision process by listening into a [00:30:00] recommendation from a friend or family, they don't have. Any of the skepticism, you know, the concerns that a cold lead has, you have to address those in your sales process.

So, you know, as well as your marketing, you've got to have your sales process then to take those leads forwards. The end result builders end up believing that advertising doesn't work and, and who can blame them because they're just looking at the results.

Greg Bray: So Russ, we really appreciate all the thoughts you've shared with us today.

We want to be mindful of your time, but I got a few more questions before we kind of wrap up. If you still got a few minutes, you can spend with us. When you look ahead to, you know, already planning for 2022, which is kind of crazy to think that we're already in that spot.

We didn't plan there, but what are some of the things you're looking at? That you think builders should be paying attention to that they need to be look as they look ahead, you know, past the next year or so.

Russ Stephens : Yeah, like you say, 2021 is going to be a fantastic year for residential home builders. And as a [00:31:00] builder, it's pretty hard not to be overbooked right now, but the thing to remember is it so artificial interest rates are not sustainable at this level and sooner or later the Piper is going to have to be paid.

Now we believe this will be. Yeah, and it starts to take effect early 2022, as things stand right now, it's very hard to predict the future because governments meddling in the fundamentals of the economy. So, you know, what we think is going to happen now could change a little bit more or medical, but as things stand yeah, we think things are going to start to by early 2022, but as a builder, you've got to take this fantastic opportunity.

But we find ourselves in this may never happen again in your lifetime. You've got to take this opportunity that presents itself in 2021, to build out your marketing strategy so that you are attracting high quality leads throughout 2021. That sets you up for 2022, because in [00:32:00] 2022, there's going to be casualties.

However, the best building companies will survive. They always do. There will always people be building houses that would just be less often. So in order to win, we just need to grab the market. That's left.

Greg Bray: Awesome. I love that. So. Russ, is there any kind of advice that you wanted to share with our listeners today?

The one thing we didn't get to maybe that you were hoping to share or anything.

Russ Stephens : In terms of yeah, the best bit of advice I could give anyone really is just kind of to reemphasize that once in a lifetime opportunity, because it breaks my heart really to hear these guys that are no, I'm busy now.

I'm okay. I'm just inundated with work and they're focused on the delivery. They're never going to get this chance again. This is the time you've really, if you're overwhelmed, you need guidance. You also need more help in your business. [00:33:00] And if you're busier than ever, you have the opportunity to take on additional people to take the workload off your plate.

And then you've got to lift your vision and start working on your business and looking ahead, because if you keep your vision down, And just try and do what you've been doing for the last couple of years only you know, faster and harder because you're, you're busier. You're going to find yourself in the same position in 18 months that you were 18 months ago.

So take this opportunity to scale your business, both in terms of margins and and resources. And you have a great opportunity to build a fantastic business right now.

Kevin Weitzel: Russ Stephens quote of the day, worked for your business and on your business. Love it.

Russ Stephens : Yeah. It's one of the hardest things I think we find to do especially when we love what we do, don't we, because you have builders are passionate about building quality homes.

[00:34:00] They love what they do so it's hard to kind of pull back from that. So yeah, totally get it. But yeah, we've got to grow ourselves and push ourselves into new areas and, and like you say, that means working on the business instead of in it.

Greg Bray: So Russ, if somebody wants to you know, connect with you or learn more about the Association of Professional Builders, what's the best way for them to learn more or reach out?

Russ Stephens : Well, I put some resources together for your listeners. So if they'd like to learn more, or they need to do is go to APBbuilders.com/hbdm. So that's A for association P for professional B for builders, and then the word builders again dot com forward slash HBDM. There, you're going to find a load of resources that I put together for your listeners, including a downloadable sales blueprint which maps out the sales process, there's access to free trainings for builders on there as well.

They can [00:35:00] join our private Facebook group and access our blog, which has a ton of information about marketing and advertising, a building company. They can even take a look behind the scenes inside the APB members area. And if they like what they see. They're welcome to join this movement, to improve the construction industry for builders and consumers.

Greg Bray: Well, Russell, we really appreciate you putting that together and we will be sure to have a link to that in our show notes as well on the podcast webpage as well. So, you can look for that link there as well. So that's, that's terrific. We really appreciate you sharing so much information with those who are out there.

It's been great to get to know you better today and to learn a little bit more about what you're doing. It sounds like you're doing some good work. So thanks again for your time.

Russ Stephens : Nah, thank you, Greg and Kevin it's it's been awesome chatting with you guys. Really appreciate the opportunity and look forward to to chatting to you guys again in 2021.

Greg Bray: Well, thank you everybody for listening today, and [00:36:00] please join us again next time on the Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine.

Kevin Weitzel: And I'm Kevin Weitzel with Outhouse. Thank you.