239 Examining the Economics of Home Building - Joel Berner Oct 16 2024

Greg Bray: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. And welcome to today's episode of The Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine.

Kevin Weitzel: And I'm Kevin Weitzel with OutHouse.

Greg Bray: And we are excited today to have joining us, Joel Berner. Joel is a senior economist at realtor.com. Welcome Joel. Thanks for being with us.

Joel Berner: Thanks so much for having me.

Greg Bray: Well, Joel, let's start off and just get to know you just a little bit. Give us a quick background about yourself.

Joel Berner: Absolutely. So, I'm located in Austin, Texas here at the realtor.com headquarters, and I'm a senior economist with a focus on new homes and new construction. [00:01:00] So, I write monthly and quarterly and all kinds of different pieces about activity in the new construction market, including trends with prices and time on market and all the things that are important to folks who are interested in building homes, buying a new home, or just seeing how the new home market compares to the resale market.

So, I've kind of got my hands in a couple of different areas with the company, but very data-driven, very much taking advantage of some of the cool things we have at realtor.com. Being an online marketplace for people looking to buy homes gives us a lot of insight into what people are interested in, what monthly and annual trends look like and, you know, just in general, where things are hot where things are not and what's moving in the market from month to month.

My background has been kind of at the intersection of real estate and technology. I was with Airbnb for a little bit. I was with another short-term rental company for a little while. Then was a products manager on a buy now pay later for rent product where we would write a short-term loan for folks who struggle to pay their rent all on the first of the month and let them spread that out through over [00:02:00] the course of the month. So, I've been pretty involved with where people live and the kind of technology that they use to make that easier for them.

Kevin Weitzel: All right. Before we dive into spreadsheet, nerdville, level 10 because I'm thinking we might get in there a little bit, could you tell our listeners a little something personal about yourself that has nothing to do with family, home building, or the work life?

Joel Berner: Yeah. So, I love music, and I live in the right city for that. Austin's a great place to go see shows. You know, if you're bored on any given night in Austin, Texas, it's kind of your own fault. So, I like to see a lot of concerts. I play the saxophone and I am always trying to discover new music. So, when I'm here, kind of in the spreadsheet matrix, I've usually got something bumping in my headphones and that's what keeps me going through the day.

Kevin Weitzel: All right, two follow-up questions. Number one, favorite saxophone.

Joel Berner: I play the tenor. I always have, so I have an affinity for John Coltrane. I play a Cannonball, and I have for a long time. I've had that horn for probably 15 years and it's [00:03:00] been a really good one, American-made. I like it.

Kevin Weitzel: Yes, they are. Then two, streaming or vinyl. What's your poison?

Joel Berner: You know, I'm not super into the audio file vinyl thing. I think it's cool and really interesting, but it's expensive and time-consuming. So, I don't mind just sticking my headphones in and turning on Spotify, and listening to your podcast on Spotify. I saw y'all on there.

Greg Bray: Wow.

Kevin Weitzel: Did you just hear that Greg? He listens to our podcast. Oh my goodness. We just gained our listening group by one.

Greg Bray: And it's probably not for the music content either. Even though Kevin has been known to break out into song on a couple of episodes.

Kevin Weitzel: Yes. FYI, my music collection, I have about 3000 records.

Joel Berner: Oh wow.

Kevin Weitzel: So, I am that nut that has spent way too much money on records that will never. Gain in value. So, there you go.

Greg Bray: So Joel, before we get a little deeper, there's just one question I've been pondering and really want to know. At what point does somebody wake up and say, you know what? I think I want to be an [00:04:00] economist. When does that happen in life? How does that work?

Joel Berner: It's a lot of trial and error. I don't think when you ask a seven-year-old what they want to be when they grow up, I don't think they say they want to be an economist. But when you go through some school and you try some engineering, you say, maybe this isn't for me. You try some math. This isn't for me. Like, where can I land in the middle? So, it was something for me that I was always interested in. I liked, in high school and college, as I took my first econ classes, being able to watch the news and know what they're talking about. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, I like this. This is very real, very hands-on, and impacts the world around me. So, that's kind of what got me hooked.

Greg Bray: All right, well, everybody wants to know what's going on in the housing market. So, just the really quick assessment overall, big picture, housing doing well, housing's crashing. Where are we today?

Joel Berner: Housing is a little slow. I think anybody who's trying to sell a home right now or anybody who's a real estate agent right now could tell you that we're seeing time on the market pick up pretty considerably over the last [00:05:00] couple of years against the backdrop of 2021 and 2022 when things were pretty buck wild and homes were flipping in a day or two on the market, if even that, and had cash offers coming in sight unseen.

You know, in Austin, it was kind of a microcosm of that. So, I got to see a lot of hyperactivity when it came to folks trying to buy homes in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic. And now we're kind of getting back to the new normal, maybe? What is normal is a really good question. What can we expect? Is it gonna be more like the 2016 to 2019 period? Is it gonna be more like the 2009 to 2015 period?

These are some of the things that we're kind of trying to suss out. You know, the things that go into that are mortgage rates, of course, the big thing. We're seeing mortgage rates come back down, which is good news, going to juice the market a little bit and give people an opportunity to have more budget to go out and buy homes.

We're also seeing an increase in inventory, more homes coming onto the market, pretty big spike in newly listed homes over the last few [00:06:00] months. So, people are taking notice and trying to take advantage of this period when things are settling down and getting back to more of a steady state than they have been in the last few years.

So, I think if you would just kind of look around, you'd see like prices are a little stagnant, days on market is going up, but also inventory is coming up and people have more buying power at lower mortgage rates. So, I think we're going to see pretty good pickup and reach a more kind of balanced state than we've seen over the last five or 10 years.

Kevin Weitzel: So Joel, let me follow up that with one little ism that has popped in my brain from time to time. When we had that massive explosion of pricing in homes because when they were flipping so fast, the price just kept shooting up and up and up, how much of that stagnation in inventory is just based on the fact that people have been priced out of markets?

Joel Berner: Yeah, that's absolutely a big piece of it, and especially with mortgage rates where they were. We talked a lot about the lock-in effect where you know If I bought a home a couple years ago at two and a half percent That's the best investment I've ever made in my life. Why would I sell that home?

Kevin Weitzel: 2.25, [00:07:00] baby. You're going to have to pry that interest rate from my cold dead hands.

Joel Berner: Exactly, and that's been part of the problem and why inventory levels have been struggling over the last few years. And people trying to buy a home just think like man, I can't afford any of this. And there's maybe one or two listings a month that come up in my budget range. It's been slim pickings. But that's starting to turn around. As mortgage rates come down, people get unlocked, people get a little more excited about being in the market and things will start picking up a little bit.

We kind of experienced, we didn't kind of experience, we absolutely experienced a large market shock a couple years ago, and everything has just been sort of rebounding from that and trying to get back to a place of balance. So, it's not that we're seeing a fundamental decline in the housing market in terms of true demand. We actually see a large gap in the number of households that are forming every year and the number of new homes that are being built and the number of homes that are coming onto the market. So, there's definitely an opportunity for this to become more robust and to match people to [00:08:00] homes. But at the moment, really what we're seeing is just a return to kind of more stable conditions.

Kevin Weitzel: Can I follow up that with one more question? I know that in certain markets, Phoenix being one of them, where investment groups came in and literally would buy up entire communities of new homes, they would even build rental specific, so basically eliminating that first-time buyer product line from the available market. Have you seen that in any other major communities across the United States or any municipalities across the United States outside of like Phoenix?

Joel Berner: Yeah. A couple of years ago, there was a ton of investor activity in some major metros, Phoenix being one of them. Atlanta saw a lot of it, lots of Southern and Sunbelt markets kind of saw this. Investors saw an opportunity to get into managing rentals as an income stream. And fortunately for the home buyer, maybe unfortunately for the investors who really dove in those places like Phoenix and Atlanta, rents have been really, really, really declining in the [00:09:00] last couple of years.

And so, it's maybe not as attractive of a business proposition as it was in 2021 or 2022 when rents were increasing by it seemed like 10 percent every month. It was really notable what was happening in that period. If you look at my colleague, Jiayi Xu's reporting on the rental market, she has this graph, it's really striking, of rent growth month by month and just a huge spike right after the pandemic and now just kind of piddly little losing a percent every month for the last several years, actually. So, that problem, well, problem from the perspective of a first-time homebuyer, like you said, is maybe going to be a little bit less in play now than it was a couple of years ago.

Greg Bray: So, Joel, one of the things that I hear builders talk about a lot is that there's natural cycles in home building and home sales and that you can always kind of say every 7 to 10 years you're going to get a decline, but it just feels like that cycles changed a bit in the last little while. Would you agree that the traditional cycle [00:10:00] is no longer the norm, or is it just that it's just a really weird time the last few years and we will kind of get back to that same cycle eventually?

Joel Berner: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question. It's kind of hard to say what is a normal cycle if we don't have any shocks and how many periods have we had of 15 or 20 years without some kind of shock happening. So, what precipitates these changes in the markets isn't always just organic, so much as it is something like the dot com bubble or the Great Recession or COVID-19.

So, it's a little bit less of thinking about it like the seasons of the year. It's something that's a little bit more of exogenous, a little bit of more kind of a shock to the system and rebalancing. It's more of a throwing a rock at a puddle than it is just waiting from month to month for the weather to change. So, I don't put a whole ton of stock in the organic cycle argument just because we live in a world that's constantly [00:11:00] changing. If we ever had a nice 40 or 50-year period where nothing crazy happened, we could see how this works but it's just never quite that simple I don't think.

Greg Bray: I love that analogy of the rock in the pond versus the weather. And then every now and then you had a meteorite in the pond instead of just a rock.

Kevin Weitzel: Notice that he said puddle and you're saying pond because in my mind when he said like a rock in a puddle, I'm thinking somebody using a crane and dropping a freaking semi-truck into a lake, and then the hassle of having to dredge that lake to get the semi-truck out and all the other things that come into play. So, I feel what you're going there with that Greg.

Joel Berner: We all felt more like a meteorite than a puddle a couple of years ago. So, I understand that.

Greg Bray: So Joel, let's talk about everybody's favorite economic topic. Interest rates. You know, as we're talking today, the Fed has changed direction a little bit with the first cut in a little while. What do you think the impact of that's going to be right now and how much of it's still going to be this, well, I'm going to keep waiting to see if they cut it more and waiting [00:12:00] if they cut it more? It just feels like sometimes we're all just waiting for them to do something else. We're never happy with what they do. We want more.

Joel Berner: Right, and it gets complicated because people are always anticipating, and it's the expectations about the rate cuts that are more important than the rate cuts in general. And so, we saw in advance of this most recent round of cutting a couple of months of slides in the mortgage rate. Recently we're down to, I think, 6.08. Which has been the lowest level of mortgage rates in a couple of years, and if there's more cuts we can expect that the mortgage rates will follow.

But how much of that already gets priced in by expectations is kind of important. So, absent of the Fed doing something really unpredictable, I think we can expect just kind of generally lower rates than we've seen, not back to the quantitative easing type of rates that were prevalent five years ago or anything. But if people are waiting for something dramatic to happen, they might be a little disappointed because the market is smart and the market's efficient and prices these things in before they happen.

These announcements [00:13:00] and some of the expectations, if you look at predictions markets about how the Fed is going to behave for the rest of the year, they're already pricing in another 25 basis point cut. So, if that prediction is true, then we would expect those kind of changes to be priced into the market and expect those mortgage rates to come in line with those expectations.

But at realtor.com we've changed our projection for the end of year a little bit. We're expecting low sixes for the rest of the year and into the high fives next spring, which is a little lower than our first estimate that came out at the end of 2023 for 2024. So, we're not expecting anything super dramatic. We're expecting kind of a reasonable and slow decline back into a rate environment that'll be good for everybody, a rate environment where people have more budget and more options, and, we kind of accelerate a little bit after a couple of years of deceleration.

Greg Bray: Do you find that while those of us who kind of watch those things closely have priced it in, the market itself is priced it in, but has the average [00:14:00] buyer who maybe doesn't watch some of these things quite as closely, is it when the announcement actually happens that they pay a little more attention? Do you see any type of uptick in activity connected to announcements versus when things have actually already been priced in a little bit, or is that not really the case?

Joel Berner: Yeah. The thing that we monitor really closely is the time that a listing spends on market. In a hot market, houses will move quickly, people are ready to buy, and we've seen a pretty consistent slowdown on that front over the last couple of years. It's sort of hard to say whether the weekly mortgage rate report that comes out on Thursday, on Friday are people on realtor.com looking for a new house because they saw what Freddie Mac reported on Thursday. I'm not so sure about that.

I think it's more of a kind of slower long-term question and people are evaluating what their budgets are and budgets are always changing. I don't think it's people watching it like they're watching the stock market trying to [00:15:00] time something. People know a little bit better than to try and time the housing market at this point. I don't see any close correlation on a week-to-month level, more on a month-to-year level.

Kevin Weitzel: Don't those announcements typically affect investors or people looking at secondary homes more so than the people that have to move? Because people that have to move, you know, they have to buy a home or they have to look for a rental.

Joel Berner: Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of like buying an airline ticket. If I'm going on vacation with my family, I'm probably going to buy that four six months in advance and try and get a good price and make sure that I'm ready to go, and we have all our bags packed and things. Where a business traveler who has a meeting pop up next week is going to pay the extreme price for an airline ticket because they just don't have that much time and they have to move and get things going.

How opportunistic people can be is an important part of that and how opportunistic you can be with mortgage rates would definitely lend more response to investors and purchasers of [00:16:00] secondary homes than, you know, I got a new job and I have to move to Nashville and so I'll take what I can get and take what's out there.

So, we're seeing a decline in that kind of activity, and we're seeing in a higher mortgage rate environment, a lot more primary owner-occupied homes as the purpose for the purchase. There's definitely different segments of the market that behave differently. If you follow our reporting on realtor.com/ research, we do an investor report pretty regularly to show what kind of shares in different markets are being bought up by large groups versus more of the kind of organic, my family is moving type of home purchase.

Greg Bray: Joel, with affordability in today's market, we say, okay, the rates go down, people get a little more room in their budget because they don't have to pay the bank, they can put it into the home. But do you guys see any changes happening with the product style and things that are being offered by builders in an attempt to address affordability? I mean, the [00:17:00] resale folks is kind of is what it is, but builders have the ability to maybe change what they're producing and try to target a different price point with the actual product. What are your thoughts there?

Joel Berner: Yeah, we absolutely see a different product offering. From 2022 to 2024, the median newly built home has decreased by over 150 square feet. It's a 12 by 12 room if you think about it. So, they've lopped a whole room off of a house in terms of just the square footage in order to be more affordable and to entice folks who are priced out of the existing home market into the new home market.

The challenge I think of marketing new homes is that people, in many places, don't expect to be able to afford a brand new home. But the reality is that with the inventory challenges we've seen in the existing home market, there's a gap for this kind of product. There's a gap for a smaller home, a more affordable home, that hasn't really been met by the existing home market. So, [00:18:00] builders are responding and doing absolutely the right things. We see this happening, in a more pronounced way, in places where there's a lot of new construction activity.

In Texas actually, the median new home has become smaller than the median existing home for the first time in 2024, which is kind of crazy, if you ask me about it. Like, when you think about, oh, I'm going to build a home in Texas. I'm going to do it on 100 acres and it's going to be a sprawling 7 bedroom kind of thing. But that's not what builders are building. That's not what people want. So, they're adjusting and really able to kind of meet that gap and supply the demand that people have for affordable housing.

I think that's going to continue and something that builders should keep an eye on is just exactly how they're competing with the existing home market in places where existing home prices have gotten higher and higher over the years and there's fewer in the smaller categories available on the existing home markets.

An interesting nugget. The most recent Census Bureau [00:19:00] data, for new home sales that came out earlier this week, saw an increase of a couple of percentage points month over month and almost 10 percentage points year over year when it comes to the share of homes that sold under 300,000. That's the fastest-growing segment of new home sales right now.

Greg Bray: Interesting. For those listening to this, we're talking at the end of September in 2024, just to kind of give you context on some of these numbers and statistics that we're throwing around.

Kevin Weitzel: In case they listen to this two years from that.

Greg Bray: Yeah. You never know, Kevin. Sometimes people come back and listen to us over and over and over again.

Kevin Weitzel: They do. Sometimes they listen to episode two over and over again, which is what they should be doing. Episode two is one of the best episodes ever done by The Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast.

Greg Bray: Well, Joel, I did see a statistic not too long ago that a price per square foot metric had new homes actually lower than existing or resale homes for the first time I think ever. Is that a number that you're familiar with at all?

Joel Berner: It is. Yeah, I saw that report. I think Zillow put something out like that and [00:20:00] I tried to recreate it and it's pretty close, closer than it's been in a long time in my data. But we must have a slightly different methodology, but I've seen that gap closing. I can attest to the fact that on a square-foot basis, we're actually starting to see more affordable new homes. And some of that is a function of size and a lot of it is a function of location.

Thinking about some of these smaller homes being built maybe kind of on the undeveloped parts of town, maybe a little bit outside of the center circle of some of these cities. So, getting more bang for your buck and being able to get more house for less in a new build are all really appealing things. I think there's a lot of pieces of that. To be honest with you, I don't think that's that interesting of a statistic at the national level. I think it's much more interesting at a metro level to see kind of apples-to-apples comparison because there aren't a whole ton of new homes being built in really expensive metros across the country, and they're building a lot in less expensive [00:21:00] metro.

So, when you throw all that in together in a national statistic, it's kind of like, yeah, but like, where is this happening? So, to me, it's more interesting to see where within a single metro, how does the existing home inventory compare to the new home inventory. And there are some surprising places there, Austin being one of them. Where, in Austin right now, there's hardly any premium on new construction at all. New construction median price and existing home median price are just about the same, and that varies across the state.

It's different in Dallas. In Dallas, there's a lot more of a premium on the new builds, but in the state as a whole, it's about a 5 or 6 percent premium, but in Austin, it's basically even. And that's just a result of different factors in the existing home market. How much of the supply is there? How are prices behaving? And then also, you know, how much is being built? Where is it being built? And what kind of home is being built? Yeah, in Texas, at least we're seeing a lot of smaller, more affordable homes that are kind of adding to that trend to reach the statistic that you [00:22:00] mentioned.

Greg Bray: So, Joel, for the builders who are listening, who are not neck deep in economic data every day, and they want to kind of keep in touch and also, as they look ahead because one of the things I really respect about builders is how forward-looking they have to be in their businesses to try and make plans. Trying to figure out what land should I invest in. How long it's going to take me to build out this community?

Especially when it's larger and not knowing when those sales are actually going to come and everything. The risks they take are just amazing to me, mind-boggling. But for these folks that are trying to understand a little bit more, what are kind of the top three or four indicators that you would recommend that they kind of check in on on a periodic basis to keep their thumb on the pulse of what's going on?

Joel Berner: Yeah, that's a great question. I would absolutely be looking at the share of new construction in a given market. So, is it an underserved market when it comes to new construction? Is there just not much available for people who want to be able to buy a new home? Then maybe that's an opportunity to fill a [00:23:00] gap. It might not be an opportunity to fill a gap if you're paying attention to the time on market. If existing homes are getting snatched up at a really fast pace, then maybe that's a good sign for demand. That's a good sign that there is an opportunity to supply more into that given market.

I pay attention to how many listings there are, how quickly existing homes are moving, and then, price growth, and price distribution. I think if you look at a lot of big markets, especially in coastal markets, your Santa Barbara's and your Miami's and whatever. Look at the distribution of what's for sale on the existing side.

It's very top-heavy, things that are not affordable to the median income earner and not affordable to many people in that metro. Where there's an opportunity now to build smaller, build more affordable, and fill in where the existing market just isn't able to do that because of a lack of inventory or locked-in inventory or whatever the reason may be.

I saw kind [00:24:00] of an interesting survey result a couple weeks ago. They had interviewed a lot of baby boomer homeowners and over 50 percent of these homeowners said they planned to live in their home until they die. And if that's true, that's a big bite out of what the existing home supply might be.

I don't know if that's different than other generations. If you look back, you know, 50 years were the people born around the turn of the century staying in their homes until they died. I couldn't tell you off the top. But if there's additional supply constraints because of people's decisions based on why would I sell this home? I own it outright. Or I have it at a 2.25 percent mortgage rate. Anything to that effect is going to constrain the affordable homes in a given area.

So, I would look at price distribution and try to find gaps. And I would just pay attention to kind of general economic data. Are people actually moving into this area? Are there jobs being created? Or is it someplace that's kind of slow for some fundamental reasons rather than a lack of [00:25:00] supply reasons? So, I think all those pieces together would point to some metros or some states or cities that have a lot of opportunity, where things are moving really quickly.

I think about Nashville remains a pretty hot market. Homes are spending less than 40 days on there for new or existing homes, and it's a growing city with growing jobs. I would look for things like that. Look for places that have all of the kind of basic fundamentals, but also maybe have a lower share of new homes on the market, just to be competing against the existing home market rather than against other builders.

Kevin Weitzel: So, it's no secret that the Rust and Bible Belt have been hit pretty heavily with people moving away from there and into coastal areas or hot markets that have job sector growth. When, in your view, will places like Akron, Ohio, go from being a ghost town to being the next place that people want to move to, or Wichita, Kansas? I mean, you look at it [00:26:00] this way, Charlotte, there's more new homes built in the Charlotte Metro alone than the entire state of Missouri and Kansas combined. So, when will those markets see an influx, if you will, of people versus an exodus?

Joel Berner: Yeah, I think it'll balance out as much as it can with the remote work trends. I think that's really important. You know, like if I spend all day in my house and I work from my home office, I'd rather work in a big house on a lot of land somewhere than in a small, expensive place, speaking from personal experience living in Austin. But embracing folks who want to kind of live that work-from-home lifestyle on more space, more land, maybe better infrastructure, we could see a resurgence of places like Akron, Ohio.

I don't know so much if that's going to come on the builder side of the equation as it is on the existing home side of the equation just because, you know, there's an imbalance between supply and [00:27:00] demand. Just kind of forcing more supply in might not have the effect on home values that we're really hoping for. So, I think that's a great question. It always kind of comes in cycles in response to shocks, just like everything we've been talking about so far today.

Like, if you looked at Boise a couple of years ago, one of the hottest housing markets in the country, people fleeing expensive California markets. And they're like, wow, I can live like a king in Boise. This is great. And then, you know, remote work kind of slows down. There's back to the office mandates and things have turned around pretty dramatically there. We'll see that story happen in a lot of different ways, but the more flexibility people have, I think, is better for some of these places that have, you know, maybe struggled a bit in recent years.

Greg Bray: Well, Joel, this has been a great conversation. It's a little different topic that we don't always tap into. I've learned a little bit and appreciate you spending time with us today. Do you have any last words of advice or insights that you wanted to share with the audience before we finish [00:28:00] up?

Joel Berner: Yeah, a quick nugget that I pulled this morning. I was kind of curious how new homes across the country are performing compared to existing homes just in general. And while new homes spend more time on the market than existing homes as a rule, just because we put up a listing before a house is built. It's kind of difficult getting people in to get to the new subdivisions and everything. So, we expect to see that.

But while existing homes last year we're selling across the country in an average of 43 days, that's moved up to 51 days while new homes have actually fallen from 84 to 82. So, the pace of the market is picking up for new construction. That's really exciting. That's something that we're gonna continue to see, especially because builders are focusing in the right areas. They're building a lot in Charlotte. They're building a lot in Texas and in Utah, and in Idaho, a little bit as well was one of our top-ranked states for new construction.

So, I think we're going to see that this is [00:29:00] becoming a reality for buyers that maybe wasn't before. There's more options that are affordable, more options that are smaller. We're going to see a lot of excitement and a lot of juice in the market as we continue to go forward. Because people realize like, Hey, I am sick of looking at the same neighborhoods on realtor.com every week and not seeing the homes in my price range that I'm looking for. But there's a new development. Maybe I hadn't thought about that. Just a little bit to the outside of town.

I think that that is going to be a trend that we see a lot of, especially first-time home buyers, people who were kind of priced out of this legacy situation of having really low mortgage rate on an existing home, turning to new construction. Like I said before, there's a 7,000,000 home gap in this country that there's only one way to fill. So, we just got to keep pushing at that.

Greg Bray: Well, Joel, if somebody is trying to get some of the resources that realtor.com is making available, some of the data in the reports, where's the best place for them to find that?

Joel Berner: [00:30:00] Yeah, realtor.com/research has all of our articles and all of our data there. If you have questions about it or want to see things cut in a different way or ideas, we're always welcome to ideas for new research. You can email economics @realtor.com. We'd love to hear from you.

Greg Bray: Well, Joel, thanks so much for spending time with us. And thank you everybody for listening today to The Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine.

Kevin Weitzel: And I'm Kevin Weitzel with OutHouse. Thank you. [00:31:00]