224 Creating Compelling Copywriting - Ben Culbreth Jul 3 2024

Greg Bray: [00:00:00] Hello, everybody, and welcome to today's episode of The Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine.

Kevin Weitzel: And I'm Kevin Weitzel with OutHouse.

Greg Bray: And we are excited to have joining us on the show today, Ben Culberth. Ben is the owner of Culberth Copywriting. Welcome, Ben. Thanks for being with us today.

Ben Culbreth: Yeah. Thank you all for having me. Excited to be here.

Greg Bray: Well, let's start off, Ben, and just help people get to know a little bit about you. Give us that quick introduction and overview about yourself.

Ben Culbreth: Yeah, I'm Ben Culbreth. I'm a content strategist and copywriter and the owner of Culbreth Copywriting. [00:01:00] I'm in South Carolina, a little town called West Columbia, right across the river from the capital of Columbia.

Kevin Weitzel: All right, that's geography and a little bit about your background. However, before we take a deeper dive, we need for our listeners to know something personal about you, not job related, not work related, not home building related. Break out with it. What do we got, Ben?

Ben Culbreth: Yeah, I've thought a lot about this one. So, I spent a lot of time at the keyboard, at the monitor doing this kind of work, so typically, by the end of the day, back is a little bit tight. I'm ready to get up and move. So, I try to spend a lot of time outside. My wife and I go camping a good bit. Being in South Carolina this time of year, we don't camp as much because it's about 90, 95 degrees all day long. But, when the weather's nice, we go camping, go hiking, and I have recently gotten into tennis. So, we play a lot of tennis as well.

Kevin Weitzel: So, can you get tennis elbow hiking? Number one. Number two, follow up question. Have you ever seen Bigfoot?

Ben Culbreth: So, yes, you can get tennis elbow hiking. If you're moving a little bit too quick, you know, the elbows get [00:02:00] going in there. You're going to get some overuse there, so got to stretch and keep everything nice and loose. I don't think I've ever seen Big Foot. He's elusive. I've seen plenty of footage. I'm kind of diving in a little bit. I haven't totally decided what I think yet, you know, in terms of he's real or not, but I have heard some weird noises in the woods. I can't confirm or deny really.

Greg Bray: Oh, Kevin.

Kevin Weitzel: Inquiring minds want to know. Eight years in the core and my camping days are done. So, I had to know.

Greg Bray: I always thought Bigfoot was like a rocky mountain thing, not a southeast thing, but okay.

Ben Culbreth: Oh, no, got them down here. They call them Skunk Apes down here

Greg Bray: Well, Ben, tell us a little bit more about your career path and how you decided to get into writing and content strategy.

Ben Culbreth: Yeah. You know, I guess it kind of started when I was in high school, I took journalism. I kind of always enjoyed reading and writing as a kid. And then, you know, getting up into high school, started taking those classes, working on the newspaper and the yearbook. Kind of thought I wanted to go become a reporter and work in [00:03:00] newspapers, but I mean, every year for the last, 50, 60 years, newspapers have been dying. You hear that all the time. Well, I kind of bought into it, thinking, you know, maybe I don't want to go that route.

So, I ended up choosing and going into a marketing program. Got a marketing degree. But I got paid first in my university over a decade ago now, when I was a freshman, they were hiring writers to work on some content marketing. I didn't know what content marketing was. I didn't know what freelancing was. But I was doing both of those things, and actually interviewing students and alumni from my school's interior design program. So, got kind of a taste of building and design industry at that time.

Worked a few different jobs kind of in sales and marketing. And then, I guess about 6 years ago now, I started freelancing a little bit on the side. Like a lot of people COVID hit, job changes and things like that. So, I just started pursuing it more. And then, coming up on 3 years ago, next month in June, I went back to work full-time running my own business, and I've been kind of doing different things and plugging along since then.

Greg Bray: Well, give us a quick overview. Tell us what you do offer today and what types of [00:04:00] services and who you'd like to work with.

Ben Culbreth: Yeah. So, I'm a content strategist and copywriter. So, essentially what I will do is kind of start with a strategy with folks, so that's coming in whatever project it is. Maybe it's a new website or a rebuild of a website, or they're looking to kind of expand on their marketing. Work with them on kind of developing a strategy around the content needs there, what that needs to look like, who it needs to go to, answering all those core questions.

And then I will actually help kind of implement that strategy from there. So, you know, that typically, for me at least, involves, you know, some writing. Whether that's for the website, for other marketing collateral, you know, like blogs, customer stories, and things like that.

In terms of clients, you know, I've worked across the board, but over the last, getting close to a year now, I've kind of honed in on my focus and I work with a lot of builders, typically. I've worked with a little bit more custom builders, but across the board. And then, also work with just a lot of firms in the architecture, engineering and construction industries. So, I've kind of started focusing on that specifically.

Greg Bray: So, I know one thing that I've seen you talk a little bit [00:05:00] about that I'm interested in is this idea of storytelling. Often, we talk about content, like, oh, I need to write this paragraph about the history of the company, or I need to write about this particular home or this particular project or whatnot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you tend to look at a little more holistically what's the overall story of the company and their message to their audience. Why is that so important to you? What is it that you feel that is beneficial to that type of step back approach a little bit to the overall message?

Ben Culbreth: Yeah, no, I think you're spot on with it. Yeah. Well, I'm a writer, so naturally, I love a good story. But looking at it from that standpoint, when an organization or a company is looking to engage with an audience or connect with a client, I think there's a tendency to focus on kind of the granular stuff. So, maybe that's price or service or benefits or features, whatever that may be.

But I kind of really look at a way to tell a story so that it engages someone, it captivates them. And then, also it gives them a way to connect to a company in a way that just kind of seeing [00:06:00] the basics about what they do is not going to resonate quite the same way. So, I like to kind of approach it that way and be able to say, like, how can we weave some really great storytelling into this so that we can connect with people on that level? And I think that's even more important now, you know, as we're entering kind of an AI era.

And I imagine we'll probably discuss that. As soon as you say AI, you have to open up the conversation and start talking about that. Right? So, but I think, you know, being able to kind of be a great storyteller gives you an opportunity to place yourself in the mind of a prospect or a client in a way that most people are not doing right now.

Greg Bray: So, to be a great storyteller as a company, what are some of the elements that you look for that would say, Oh, this is a good one, and that one could use some work? What's the difference between those?

Ben Culbreth: Yeah, well, especially when I'm looking at builder websites, I try to look very closely and see, you know, how often are they highlighting a client story or the customer story? Because really that's what's going to impact people, right? You know, if you're looking about building a home, you're going to visit a site, you want to hear and learn and know what the [00:07:00] experience is of people who are like you. When I'm kind of evaluating the storytelling on a website or anywhere else, that's a critical component for me is to know how does the client story integrated with your companies.

The second part of that is being able to kind of tell the story of how you work without it being very bland, not just laying it out there, you know, saying this is step one, step two, step three. I look for them to be able to tell the story in a way that's gonna say, building this home with us, this is how it's gonna work, this is what your role is in it, and this is what you can expect from us in a compelling way. Those are two of the things, but I would say that the client portion of that is probably the most impactful part for me.

Kevin Weitzel: But who drives that conversation? Is it you that goes on and assesses like the website and the stories that is there or lack thereof, and you say, Hey, you know, Mr. Customer, you have no story on there? There's nothing that tells about your clients and their process and you know, what they liked about doing business with you, yada, yada, yada. Or is it that they're saying, Hey, Ben, we don't know how to do the phraseology [00:08:00] behind the message we want to make?

Ben Culbreth: Yeah, it could be both. I would say typically it's kind of the former. I'll engage with someone and we'll have a conversation about the role of storytelling in their marketing and also what it looks like on their website. I will say, you know, typically, folks I work with kind of have an awareness moment where they either see the impact of good storytelling and they experience it or see it on someone else's side, or just kind of have a realization of we're not doing enough of that, and they'll approach me.

So, I think there does kind of have to be a little bit of awareness on the builder or the client side, because otherwise there may be kind of a conflict there. You know, if they're not fully bought into what I'm saying, and they don't believe in it, then it is difficult to work together from that standpoint. But, you know, oftentimes I do come and say, here's the state your website's in right now, here's the content you have on there.

Typically, they're not getting the results they're looking for or there's something that's just not delivering for them, and that's when we start talking about how can we craft some messaging, craft some copy, that's actually going to tell a story that's going to [00:09:00] resonate with your prospective customers and your audience and actually start moving them towards the action that you want them to take.

Greg Bray: All right, Ben, I need to go on record with something.

Ben Culbreth: Okay.

Greg Bray: In my experience with the many websites that we've done over the years, writing content for websites for most people is hard.

Ben Culbreth: Yeah.

Greg Bray: It's challenging and it gets in the way of getting the website done. A lot. For many of them we say, okay, look, we need some stuff that describes this. We need stuff that describes that. They can deliver the imagery. They can deliver the specifications of the product. They can even deliver the third party assets, like what Kevin brings to the table. They can go get those and they can figure all that out.

But when it comes to describing these things or telling about themselves, a lot of them struggle and it almost becomes this point where the project kind of gets stuck in the mud a little bit. How do we make that easier for people? Is there any secret or is that just the way it is? It's just hard work and you got to slog through it. Or is there something that [00:10:00] everybody's missing that could make it a little bit easier to do? What's the secret?

Ben Culbreth: They need a copywriter. That's where they need to start.

Greg Bray: Well, okay. All right.

Ben Culbreth: No, you know, the hardest story to tell is your own, right? I mean, and I struggle with that. You know, I looked at my own website the other day and thought, I would like to change this, this, and this. And I can go ahead and tell you right now it's going to be a lot more challenging for me to do that even though I'm in my own business every day than it is to write for a client. Yeah, I think that's a really great question, honestly.

It is very tough to tell your own story and write that content. I think it's just hard for people to get that out on the page. I've seen it time and time again with clients. If you're working on a website, like you said, a lot of times, the copy is kind of the log jam there. I would try to address it right up front and at least get some framework built out there.

Even if you don't have all the copy listed, I would try to go page by page and say, here's kind of what we want the headline to say, here's 2 or 3 lines, a copy for a description section, like, generally what we want to say. But it is tough. The best thing [00:11:00] you could do to try and break that up and try to maybe get out of that, if you want to call it writer's block or whatever it is, if a builder or a client's writing it themselves is to actually listen to your clients.

If you engage with them or just call one up and talk to them and try to listen to what they say about the experience. Listen to what they say it was like working with you. Take their words because that's going to resonate with another client. You may know your service really well, but the best person to tell that story is a client you worked with and who had a great experience. I would try to take what they say, take their language, write that down, jot in a Word doc, and use that to kind of try to help you get in a creative flow with your copy.

Greg Bray: So, as you are working with somebody, it sounds like that third party view that can really help because it's more about, gosh, I don't know what to say about me or my company that kind of gets in the way. I can see that. It's certainly hard when I try to do something for us internally, that's definitely a little bit harder to do.

Ben Culbreth: Yeah.

Greg Bray: What are the things that [00:12:00] you would ask for from somebody to kind of help you start that process? How much detail, how much background information would you need to kind of be able to start putting some of that together?

Ben Culbreth: Yeah. One of the first things I would ask for is access to clients. I would want to talk to them and interview them. A lot of what I do anyway is customer storytelling, so doing longer form customer stories. But I would want to just sit down and talk to them and say, you know, tell me about your experience. How did you even find this builder? You know, talk to me a little bit about when something went wrong. Let's talk about that. What were the challenges? How did you overcome those? Start talking to them about that.

From there, you know, I would really kind of want to dive deeper into the process. I'm trying to kind of understand at a much deeper level, what is it like for this builder when they're building a home with someone. I want to talk to project managers. I want to get those details. I want to look at kind of the behind the scenes. Because I think when you can kind of dig up that information, you can weave that into a story that's going to be compelling for someone and they're going to get a much better picture of what [00:13:00] it's like to work with you as opposed to maybe just kind of the bland copy that you could throw up there saying, hey, we build these homes and we'd like to work with you.

When you're able to kind of combine including the customer experience and their words as well as the behind the scenes in terms of process, I think you can really kind of put together a compelling narrative for a website, especially, that's going to resonate with people and also help you so much with that creative. You know, when you've got words and ideas coming at you from other places, that's not just to your own head, you're going to start to see some movement there in terms of what you're able to do creatively.

Greg Bray: Kevin, when you talk with folks, would you ever want them to come and say, Oh, tell me about what went wrong? That seems like a little bit of a loaded question to be asking there, Ben.

Kevin Weitzel: Best. You know, that's actually part of my follow up is that I do ask them, how did things go with implementation? Did you have any things that we could have done better? We do have that. And honestly, if you're not willing to hear those things, you're not really willing to grow and to make improvements. So, yeah, no, it's scary. It's a [00:14:00] scary endeavor to take on because sometimes the truth can hurt. You know, like when people ask me about why my face looks the way it does. It just does. You know, you gotta just take it. It's the way it is.

Ben Culbreth: There's only so much you can control, you know,

Kevin Weitzel: That's it. You know.

Greg Bray: Well, Ben, I think that sounds like a lot of work, all those questions, all those answers. Is that maybe why it gets kind of frozen too, that it's actually just, there's a lot going on? If it's so much work, can these AI tools speed it up or not, or is this just something that's kind of outside the scope of where these tools are? What are your thoughts on the AI stuff?

Ben Culbreth: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, it is a lot of work, honestly. And I do think, you know, just briefly going back to kind of what you asked earlier, Greg, I do think that's part of the reason people kind of freeze up when it comes to writing content is because they don't know where to start. And if it's not something they do every day, that's perfectly understandable.

It's just like me going out and trying to fix the car right now. I would be useless. You know, I wouldn't know where to start, you know, on certain problems. So, it's kind of the same thing. And, you know, with [00:15:00] AI right now, as far as I know, AI can't ask anybody questions. This week, there's been some interesting stuff coming out with AI voice, so maybe it'll get to that point sooner than we think. But I do believe AI can help you with idea generation.

I've used it myself just to kind of find some different words, you know, asking it for synonyms and things like that. Personally, I don't know that I would trust AI to be the end all be all of writing your content, but I do think it can be a good place to go in and plug in some ideas, get some things back that can kind of help your creative process flowing if you need that, and then take it from there.

Greg Bray: Do you have a favorite tool that you'd like to use?

Ben Culbreth: I use a tool called Otter, like the animal. It's a recording service. So, anytime I talk to a client's customers, I'll record the interview and it will basically transcribe the whole thing for me. It's not perfect. You know, it definitely makes some mistakes, but it makes writing, especially if I'm going to use direct quotes, much, much easier. I can go in there and just copy and paste a quote, [00:16:00] drop it into a document and keep moving.

It's also super useful, I'll send those recordings to clients so that they can listen to that conversation. That has been very valuable for people because it helps with a couple of things. I think it helps them hear from their client, and their clients talking to someone that's not them, which I think is really important. I think it breaks down a barrier a little bit when they're able to talk to a third party.

I always, anytime I interview a client, I say, You know, I'm not an employee of X company, you know, they've hired me to do this. And I think that kind of helps people relax a little bit, and then they're able to kind of talk more candidly. And then, you know, that recording I ship over to a client and that way they can listen to it. I think it's good for sales teams to listen to as well.

Greg Bray: So, when you are just starting with a client and they say, okay, we want to make our website better, or we've got a new website in the works and you start looking at the content, what are some of the key things that you're looking for first? Either do they have this or are they missing that? What are some of the this's and thats that you're looking for?

Ben Culbreth: [00:17:00] Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. I kind of start off, I do kind of what's called a content inventory and that's a pretty deep dive into a website of assessing headlines, the content that's on a page. That can be written content, images, videos. You know, I kind of dive deep into all of it and use a spreadsheet to inventory a site. So, listing out all the URLs, what's working well on a page, what isn't, and how it can be improved. And that's a living document that I'll ship over and someone can use forever.

But I think in terms of kind of assessing it, you know, I always try to think through who is this company's intended audience, who are they wanting to work with, and what is that person looking to do once they arrive at their website? And I try to really assess it from that level and try to put myself in the position of the person they're trying to work with, so that I can sit there and say, you know, what are they going to do on this page? What's the goal and the purpose of this page and is it achieving that purpose for the audience? Is that person able to take the action that they want or get the information that they need? So, at a high level, that's usually where I start.

Kevin Weitzel: All right, so everybody makes mistakes. We [00:18:00] all do. I made one one time. I thought I was wrong, but the mistake was that I wasn't actually wrong.

Ben Culbreth: Yeah. Turns out you weren't.

Kevin Weitzel: Yeah. So, apparently it's not all of us makes mistakes, but no, in the world of mistakes. The easy question, obviously, is what's the biggest mistake, but that's not the question I want to ask you, Ben.

Ben Culbreth: Okay.

Kevin Weitzel: The question I want to ask you is, what is that mistake that you see that just gives you the heebie jeebies when you see it, gives you just the creepy crawlies? It's like, how are people still doing this to this day? What is that mistake that you see?

Ben Culbreth: Oh, man. There's probably several, but I would say purely from a copywriting and content standpoint, I think the thing that kind of makes me cringe now is just getting on a website that you start reading it and it's the same thing that everyone says. You know, it's something like, we'll build your dream home or we're all about you. And I'm not saying that to shame anybody that has that on their website. I don't want to do that at all.

But if you go and take 10 builder websites, I would say, at least half of them are going to say that. That hurts me a little bit because [00:19:00] I'm like, I know these folks almost certainly do really good work or they wouldn't have this great looking website. I know that they have clients who are very satisfied with them, so I know that there's a great story there that they could put together and use on their website to make it much more effective. And so, it hurts me a little bit when I get on there and see that.

Greg Bray: So, what if I really believe that it's all about my customer and I really do want to build their dream home, Ben? How do I say that differently from everybody else who's kind of saying the same thing? Have you seen somebody do it really well?

Ben Culbreth: Yes. I think that's a great question. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different ways you can say that. Like, when I say dream home, I see that get overused a little bit. I think that's just one of those things that's a term in the industry that's maybe a little bit overused. I think that goes down to really trying to know exactly who you're working with. Are they actually building their dream home with you or is this their step up second or third home, you know, where they're gonna be for 10 or 15 years, but they're not forever? I think you have to really understand that.

Kevin Weitzel: Or what if it's their only home and they used to be homeless and then you're just like, [00:20:00] we're going to put a roof over your head. The rain will stop pelting your scalp. Those are talking points that people are underutilizing.

Ben Culbreth: Yeah, exactly. You know, instead of saying, it's all about you, or it's the dream home or whatever, I think you really have to get down to understanding who you're working with and the problem that you're solving for them. Like, what kind of building problem are you solving for them? Are you building them a home that their family is expanding? You probably want to go that direction a little bit more as opposed to, you know, the dream home language or something more generic. So, I think there's ways to hone in really on your messaging that's a lot more specific than, you know, maybe some of the generic language that I see and it makes me cringe a little bit.

Kevin Weitzel: A follow up to that. Let me ask you this. I'll probably give you the long-winded version of this. So the lead singer of Survivor, the guy that did Eye of the Tiger, he is notably famous for making more money for doing a commercial jingle than he ever made his entire history in rock. And it was the real men of genius, you know, the real man of genius. That's the same guy. What are [00:21:00] your thoughts on a builder using that kind of schtick to sell a home? Do you think that that's something that, you know, cause everybody's doing the same old tried and true, you know, it's their dream home, play a wholesome place for your family, yada, yada, yada. But is there anybody, do you really think that that is something that somebody could tackle and just come out of left field? Like the Savannah bananas, if you will.

Ben Culbreth: Right? That's a good, that's a good example. Yeah. If you're going to do that kind of thing, you have to be really confident in it and you have to really own it. If you decide to go that route with kind of a schtick or something, that's really kind of out of left field, it has to be really authentic. Because I think if you try to do that just trying to get attention, it's not going to go over very well.

Just like the Savannah Bananas. I feel like they've kind of evolved over the years, right? Like, it kind of started. It's kind of like, oh, this is fun. This is kind of a joke or whatever. Now it's evolved into a whole thing and I think it's because it really matches their personality, the owner's personality, and a lot of different things really well. I think it has to be the same thing for a builder or really any company. [00:22:00]

Kevin Weitzel: I'm telling you right now, if the entire Major League Baseball was the Savannah Bananas format, I would be a season ticket holder.

Greg Bray: I got to go on record for two things, Ben. First of all, you need to understand how special you are that you got Kevin to sing on this podcast that has only happened on a very select few episodes. Secondly, I applied to the Savannah Bananas Ticket Lottery and was not picked for this season. I just wanted to go to one game, one game. I live about four hours away from there and I was willing to drive and do a whole thing to go see one game and they have so many people going for tickets, it's a lottery and you can't just go buy a ticket. And I did not win. So, if anybody's listening and wants to hook me up with some Savannah Banana tickets.

Ben Culbreth: They are doing better than major league teams cause I don't know any major league teams that are selling out completely right now.

Kevin Weitzel: So, let me ask you this to kind of bring it back into the real focus here. When you have so many different builders doing a lot of the same stuff, do you have any like tips, [00:23:00] top three tips you would give to a home builder to just make an instantaneous improvement on their copywriting?

Ben Culbreth: Yeah. Where I would start is, you know, I've said it a lot, but I really think it needs to be reiterated. You need to start off by talking to the people you've worked with. If you're really trying to improve your writing, improve your storytelling, I would talk to them. When you're actually writing, you want to talk to and about your audience. Don't talk about yourself. The people who are reading, they don't want to hear about you. They want to hear about how you're going to help them. They're reading it from their perspective, so they want to know what it is you're going to do for them. And I think the best way to do that is by understanding from the people you've worked with, what that looks like from their perspective.

The second thing to me is words are really important. You really need to remember that what you write on a website or a digital platform or social media it's going to really set the tone for what someone expects it to be like to work with you. So, in that case, I think you need to be very authentic and transparent because people are going to remember that. You know, whether it's on a social post or website, when they get ready to work with you, those words are going to be in their mind. It's really important to remember how powerful the written [00:24:00] word is in those situations.

And kind of last thing is don't try to address everyone. Don't try to be the solution for everybody. Get really specific about who it is that you're working with. This maybe simplifies it a little bit too much, but a great place to start is just trying to visualize who's a client you've worked with, what does that person look like, sound like? What do they care about? What is it like to have a conversation with that person? And start writing from a perspective of, here's what it's like to engage with them, this is how I would explain or how I would talk to them about the service that I offer.

Kevin Weitzel: All right. We rarely do this. This might even be the first. I'm going to boldly disagree with one point that you made. You said the place to start and blah blah blah blah. That's what I heard. When it should have been, the place to start is to start off with Culbreth Freaking Copywriting. Come on my man. You could have slipped in one plugin there. That's where you start and then if you want to fall back on all those other bits and tidbits of nuggets of knowledge, then you fall back on those. But start off with the man. Come on, man.

Ben Culbreth: Just address [00:25:00] it right there early. Well, I was gonna wrap it up with a nice call to action there I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Greg Bray: Ben, but one thing that jumped out at me in what you were saying there is that if you're struggling to tell your story yourself, the reality is, is that you have a story, it already exists and the place to go find it is with your customers. They're the ones that have experienced your story. And so, if you're having trouble finding that and articulating it, that's where you can go. Is that a fair summary of what you're trying to get across? Cause that's what I'm hearing you say is your customers know your story. If you can't figure it out, go ask them.

Ben Culbreth: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think being able to engage with them and to talk with them and to hear because, and I'm this way too, I think you in a business owner's mind or builder's mind, they think I do this, and they probably do that. But I think from a customer's perspective, that's going to be a very different lens of how they view it.

So, maybe a builder thinks, I built [00:26:00] this 3200-square foot house for a family of four. Okay. That's great. But the client says I couldn't find a house that fit our needs. We had something very specific in mind and we're able to find this builder and they solve that problem for us and did this, this, and this. That's a lot of different way to say it than, I've built this house for someone.

So, I think when you're able to go and hear that from someone else, it's going to open up the eyes of a business owner a lot to be able to say, Oh, wow. There's a much different perspective here of what we're doing and that's a great story to tell.

Greg Bray: Well, Ben, we appreciate the time you spent with us. There's been some great insights here that you've shared, so thank you. Any last words of advice that you'd like to leave with our listeners before we wrap up?

Ben Culbreth: Kind of go back to square one there. You know, talk to your clients, listen to them, write down what they say, start using those words in your marketing and create stories around them, and I think you'll start seeing some really positive results from that.

Greg Bray: Well, Ben, if somebody wants to reach out and connect with you, what's the best way for them to get in touch?

Ben Culbreth: Yeah, if they just want to email me [00:27:00] and talk to me directly, they can reach out at ben@benjaminculbreth.com. I'm on LinkedIn. That's a great place to go where I'm kind of posting and having conversations around storytelling, copywriting, content marketing. So, you can search me and connect there, or if they want to check out some of my work or anything else, they can head over to my website, which is benjaminculbreth.com.

Greg Bray: Well, thanks again, Ben. And thank you everybody for listening today to the Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine.

Kevin Weitzel: And I'm Kevin Weitzel with OutHouse. Thank you. [00:28:00]