136 Using the Whole Buffalo in Digital Marketing - Mark Hirschfeld Oct 26 2022

Greg Bray: [00:00:00] Hello everybody, and welcome to today's episode of The Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine.

Kevin Weitzel: And I'm Kevin Weitzel with OutHouse.

Greg Bray: And we are excited to be joined today by Mark Hirschfeld, the Director of Digital Marketing at Maronda Homes. Welcome, Mark. Thanks for joining us.

Mark Hirschfeld: Hi, guys. Nice to be here.

Greg Bray: Well, Mark, let's start off by just getting to know you a little bit and tell us a little bit about yourself.

Mark Hirschfeld: Sure. I live here in Columbus, Ohio with my wife and my dog the pug Jerome, the Bus Pettus. We've been here about two years. Been over from Pittsburgh where Maronda [00:01:00] corporate headquarters are. It's been a great experience in the new city, but loving it so far.

Kevin Weitzel: That's you with being with Maronda, but what about the personal you? Can you tell our listening audience something personal about you they'll learn about here on the podcast that they wouldn't necessarily learn about you from reading a LinkedIn profile?

Mark Hirschfeld: Interesting. Well, I spent every summer in college working at a summer camp where I was the music guy. Very much like The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, if you've seen that show or Dirty Dancing. A very similar camp leading songs and variety shows, and that was a big part of my life for a long time. So, if you ever need a song leader or a nice rendition of a Beatles song for a variety night, I could probably help you out in some way.

Kevin Weitzel: Nice.

Greg Bray: Now, are we talking like those camp songs, or are you talking about a little more in-depth?

Mark Hirschfeld: A little bit of both. It was a family camp. You go with your whole family. So, we'd be playing James Taylor at night and Puff the Magic Dragon songs for the kids during the day. So, it was a lot of fun.

Greg Bray: So, how do you go from music director to home [00:02:00] building marketing?

Kevin Weitzel: Yeah. What's that pathway look like?

Mark Hirschfeld: Well, I was in grad school at Point Park University in Pittsburgh participating in there, they had a dual master's program or as I like to call it, buy one, get one half off. So, I was participating there getting my MBA and a master's in mass communication, when I applied for a job with a local company, Maronda Holmes.

I didn't really have any real experience in home building at the time just coming out of grad school, but I had a passion for new media and mass communication and understanding the business side of developing marketing strategy, and I was a member of one of their initial digital teams. There was originally three of us. Now we're a team of about 14. So, it's been a wide journey, but it's been a lot of fun.

Kevin Weitzel: I'm under the opinion that it's not really that big a deal that somebody doesn't have any kind of housing background that comes to the housing industry, especially when it comes to marketing, because don't you feel that you bring a different flare, a different flavor to the messaging than somebody that maybe has worked in the industry for 20, 30 years would have?

Mark Hirschfeld: Yeah, I think being in this industry for 10 years, some of the [00:03:00] most exciting campaigns or strategy things that I've taken into and execute with our team has been from gained experiences outside of homebuilding. I think some of the most important things you can have is this sort of like empathetic view of putting yourself into customers' shoes in a better way, and really just looking through things through the lens of marketing and how you can apply these sort of tactics that are happening in other verticals or other industries, and how can it apply to home building?

We always say this is the largest financial decision someone will ever make. You know, we're not flash selling a shoe sale on a weekend. You know this is a big purchase with a longer burn rate. It's really important that we take the time to put ourselves in the customer's shoes with empathy and with strategy.

Greg Bray: I love that. I love that. Mark, before we get too far into the conversation though, let's just make sure everybody knows a little bit about Maronda Holmes, which markets you guys are in, and the kind of buyers that you serve and work with.

Mark Hirschfeld: Sure. Yeah. We're a family-owned home builder. We're celebrating our 50th anniversary this year. Founded in 1972. We build homes in [00:04:00] Pennsylvania, Ohio, Kentucky, Florida, Alabama, Virginia, West Virginia, and Georgia. Multi-family, single-family, and we offer a product that's pretty wide. Anywhere from first-time home buyers, all the way up to luxury buyers. We also have a subsidiary or a sister brand Focus Homes, really targeting entry-level buyers. We offer six plans that come in a limited supply of options to really make things affordable for people.

Greg Bray: So Mark, you talked about the growth that's happened on your team. Tell us a little bit about that evolution and the kinds of decisions that went into which skills you wanted to add to the team and how that evolution progressed over time.

Mark Hirschfeld: Sure. When we first started the online concierge team and the marketing team were all one and the same. Every concierge was bringing a marketing tactic or skillset to the team and we were collaborative across territories divisions, all working from our main corporate headquarters in Pittsburgh.

As we've grown to more markets and need to keep up with [00:05:00] the expectations of our home buyers, we've expanded the team to ten, and so every concierge member on our team now has a partner and they work in a four day on four day off rotation ensuring that there's consistent coverage and follow up with their team member with the leads and customers that they're working within their markets.

We have separated a bit of the marketing responsibilities from the online team, allowing them to focus exclusively on the customers, and so we have an in-house content, email, traditional marketing. So, signage, interior model, display, and a full in-house photographer videographer and we still have some independent contractors and partners that we use for other vendor-related needs. But right now it's about a 14-person team helping to drive new projects and existing strategies across the board.

Greg Bray: I think that's really interesting that you've got such a tight fit with the OSCs being part of the marketing team specifically. Lots of times they end up under the sales team, and sometimes they end up off on an island unto themselves. Which is, I think, unfortunate when that happens, but [00:06:00] was that a strategic choice, or was that just kind of a natural evolution based on where things started?

Mark Hirschfeld: I think it's a little bit of where we started, but when we were looking to expand the team, we actively made the decision to integrate the online team with our digital and marketing departments, because these initiatives are shoulder to shoulder. Our online team, you know, alongside our marketing initiatives, they're on the front lines of what our customers are seeing and touching.

They're interacting with our digital products, our digital tools and then they're interacting with our online concierges with whether it's through a sales process or a general customer service question. We're at the front lines of that together, and we just thought it was a better fit, to keep that all working on row in the same direction.

Greg Bray: So, you mentioned a videographer on the team. How do you decide what should we have on the team versus what do we want to partner with, outsource, bring in an agency to help? What's the thoughts that go into those decisions?

Mark Hirschfeld: Yeah, obviously, it's budget and time, I think, are any sort of major decisions that we make. Having a dedicated photographer videographer allowed us greater [00:07:00] control. It allowed us to have greater direction, and we were able to keep him busy with long re-shoots and campaigns that we think can be evergreen content that can exist for a while. So, yeah, if we need to have something in the short term, we're happy to go out to a partner. Whether it's photography for an inventory home or something like that, but really helping give Maronda Homes a strong visual presence and having that consistency was a pretty big key in us making that decision to have an in-house person for that role.

Greg Bray: With your content people on the team, how do you decide what kind of content you guys want to go after? You talk about the OSC bringing back ideas and things and is it based on questions they're getting all the time? Hey, we need to talk more about this so that we can help the buyers, or are there other ways that you decide where you wanna go with the content?

Mark Hirschfeld: Sure. We structure our content into three categories. First is promotional. So, if there is a particular event or open house, anything that could be more short-term sales focused. How do we partner [00:08:00] with our salespeople to make sure that they have what they need?

The second bucket would be evergreen content. Things about our brand, our building practice, who we are, what we do, how can those tools be existing for our salespeople? How can we make it more digestible for the customer in any way that they might find? Maybe they wanna watch YouTube videos. Maybe they wanna just read articles. Making sure that we have that content where they can find it in the manner in which they prefer.

The last piece would be I don't know, R and D, or you know, testing. Just new content, new things that we're just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks in terms of display of infographics, or is it developing a digital online tool?

We take a pretty concert effort to everybody at our marketing meetings for the first 10 minutes is show and tell. Hey, what did you see over the weekend in your personal life that you thought was a really cool thing? How can we maybe apply it to what we wanna do here? Was it something for a brand you liked or an experience you had at a restaurant? How can we make this maybe integral to our sales process or just our Maronda [00:09:00] experience? I always like to say, I want to use every part of the Buffalo. So, let's make one piece of content. How can we cut it a hundred different ways? How can we use it over and over again and be resourceful since time and budget are both a big factor for what we're trying to do?

Greg Bray: I think that's the first time I've heard use every piece of the Buffalo on our podcast.

Kevin Weitzel: It is a new one.

Mark Hirschfeld: Maybe it's my old days as a boy scout, you know. I like to be prepared and I like to use every part of the Buffalo.

Greg Bray: No, but the idea of making sure that the content has multiple opportunities to be used is absolutely a great way to leverage your investments. When you think of it that way you find all kinds of new ideas, right? A long article can be turned into smaller social media posts, or you know, videos can be long ones or short little 30-second snippets. Lots of different ways to do it for sure. Mark, you mentioned the idea that you've got signage and some of that on your team. Is that part of the digital marketing team, or do you have just general marketing altogether? How have you guys split between digital and traditional?[00:10:00]

Mark Hirschfeld: We have a director of traditional marketing who I work in concert with. She's been with the company for 20 years, has great vendor relationships, and handles a lot of our interior design, working with our decorators, working with our model center layouts with salespeople, and making sure together that when you're driving into a community, the signage you're seeing looks and feels the same as the display and retargeting ads that we're making sure are being part of our digital process, and if we're making updates there, we're making updates there it is in-person and online. Can we make sure there's a consistent Maronda experience? Whether you're looking on a tablet, looking on your computer, or driving down the streets of one of our communities.

Greg Bray: And the reason I'm zeroing in on that is 'cause I think your title intrigues me, 'cause I don't see that at a lot of builders yet, to have digital marketing, having its own director, its own person in charge of it. It seems to just be lumped in a lot of times, and so I find that a little refreshing and intriguing. So, sorry if I'm kind of beating on that a little bit, but just trying to understand, the [00:11:00] idea of why you guys have gone that way and the impact that it's having on your team.

Kevin Weitzel: I'll tell you why, 'cause somebody's a genius.

Greg Bray: Is Mark gonna tell us who the genius is so we can give them a shout out or is that just, is that him?

Mark Hirschfeld: I don't think there ever was a decision. I think it's always been there was, you know, we talk about how marketing is moving to a more digital, you know, landscape across the board, and sometimes new home construction in particular or real estate can be a half a step behind other industries in that world.

You know, we take a lot of pride devoting time or pieces of our budget to trying new things and putting value into the things that are working, and everything digital is easier to track now. So, I can easily point to effective campaigns to effective strategies, and I can also point to things that aren't effective. So, when it comes to, putting up another billboard or something, we have ways to track what and won't work effectively, and how can we allocate resources appropriately, and digital and mobile, especially, of course, are where that [00:12:00] is.

Greg Bray: So, Mark, speaking of tracking then are there very specific metrics that you watch? What's the one thing you look at every morning on that report that you're checking in on to see how things are progressing?

Mark Hirschfeld: You know, as I tell the team all the time, it's like, what is the goal we're trying to achieve here, and that goal can be different for a marketing campaign or the data set we're trying to assess? So, things that I look at is, of course, like what is our web traffic to lead conversion ratio. What is our lead conversion to in-person appointment request ratio? What is our in-person, you know, our scheduled appointments to held appointment ratios?

Then if I can try to identify patterns or variations in there that are giving me flashing red lights if something's not working right based on our internal performance metrics, then that kind of diagnoses me of where I need to go pay attention to.

You know, are we seeing strong traffic but not good lead conversion? Well, maybe it's product or price. If we're seeing appointments scheduled, but not held, is that on the concierge team to assess how we're reminding people or what tools we have in place to remind people of [00:13:00] upcoming appointment? Is it held appointments? Is it appointment to sale? How can I talk to the sales team about where we're missing that handoff in some way? So, I think it just depends on the area of what you're really trying to dig into, but between online sales, our online concierge team, web traffic, that leads to appointments is a big factor I probably pay the most attention to.

Greg Bray: Totally understand that. It's all about the leads, right? Sometimes we get a little bogged down in some of the other side metrics and forget that it's all about the leads. Well, let's talk a little bit more about buyer expectations and some of the things that you've been seeing. How are those evolving for you guys from a digital aspect of what buyers are expecting and looking for?

Mark Hirschfeld: Yeah, I think, we are trying to make our home shopping experience feel more familiar to people when they're online. I think often, you know, there's this expectation or this idea that when someone comes to a builder website, you know, we're gonna say, Hey, we will take you around. We will show you the way. We want you to go here. We want you to go there.

But [00:14:00] honestly, customers are used to doing complex things online. They use sites like Zillow and Airbnb or Hilton. They book complex flights, through sites with much more complicated interfaces or filters or toggles than what most home builders have, and so we made a really conscious effort to try and make our new website, which we launched in 2022, feel more like digital spaces perhaps can be outside of our industry, but more familiar to things that people are using every day.

They might only shop for a home once or twice in their life. They are booking flights or booking hotels on a more regular basis, and if we can make our website and our digital experience feel more familiar, we think we'll have better engagement and that's proving to be true. As I always say, if we were redesigning a car, we wouldn't put the windshield wiper as like a pull toggle on the floor. People want it in a familiar spot. They want to know if I reach here, this is here. So, why are we telling people to click here or go this way or make sure you do this first or that first?

Kevin Weitzel: I don't know, Mark. I like a really clean dash. So, I don't know if I would be the right candidate for that, 'cause I would be okay with a little [00:15:00] tiny pull tog on the bottom floor.

Mark Hirschfeld: There you go.

Kevin Weitzel: Clean dash, baby. Clean dash.

Greg Bray: Mark, it reminds me of a phrase I heard a long time ago that we use from time to time. It's like your website users spend most of their time on other people's websites, and so some of these standardizations, even as simple as gosh, the logo should be a link to the homepage, right? Just a little simple standardization like that. It's like, well, I want it to go somewhere else. Like, no, you don't. That's what they click when they're lost and need to start over and get back to the front. It's amazing sometimes where we struggle with I want to be different with my website, but yet I have to acknowledge that there's these standards and these expectations that users have that are the way websites quote work, and you can't just ignore that. It sounds like you guys have kind of embraced that and recognize that too with the effort you're making.

Mark Hirschfeld: We try. Yeah.

Greg Bray: So, let's talk a little bit about social media, Mark. What kinds of activities are you guys doing on social media and which platforms are you finding most effective for you today?

Mark Hirschfeld: Well, [00:16:00] again, you know, I think it all comes down to our main idea of what is the goal. What are we trying to achieve on social media? I think a lot of people don't ask themselves that question of their departments or their brands. You know, we did in some studies of our social media audiences, and an overwhelming majority of our social media audience of people who follow us on Facebook and particularly Facebook, are already Maronda homeowners or are affiliated with the company in some way, and so how can we make sure that the information putting out from a large corporate level is educational. You know, is it resourceful? How is it providing information that they're gonna want or need or use? So, making sure that we have appropriate content for the platform is really vital.

Now using, you know, paid social and strategies to the Meta business platform is a piece of what we do along with our Google Ad and paid search, but for the most part, it's how are we providing any sort of value to the customer in the content we're providing. Again, back to like using every part of the Buffalo. So, every time we have a new article come out, how can we make sure that's recycled and resourced, and then we're constantly assessing again, what is the goal? Are we looking for likes and [00:17:00] saves, or are we actually looking for traffic to those articles that's providing value to those customers?

To me, that's much more important than how many likes or favorites the post has. Is it driving traffic to our site where people can see us as a trusted source to give them updates on their home, our building processes, industry news, things like that? We really empower our salespeople to have their own localized micro-targeted marketing around what's happening at their model, their homes of the week, their open houses, their things of that nature to make them feel more part of the community that they're really trying to market for.

Greg Bray: So, that's interesting that you say you guys have done the analysis to see that a lot of these followers are already existing homeowners or existing customers that have already bought as opposed to prospects, but yet because of the wide geography you guys serve, as well as the fact that you've got first time and move-up offerings, of course, I think you want to sell them their next home too. Right?

Mark Hirschfeld: Right.

Greg Bray: So, let's not ignore them and forget about them and keep that relationship going. Knowing that has to change some of the [00:18:00] content you decide to put out there.

Mark Hirschfeld: We don't put out everything. You know, we don't put out every single realtor lunch event on social media, 'cause that might not be applicable to our greater audience, and we would wanna make sure that we have content that is, as I say, evergreen, and providing value across the board. Can we use it again? Can people go back and save it and reference it another time? Or are we gonna update it with more information about our build times or our vendor partners or our available selections and options?

Those to me, I think, are really what move the needle for what people look and value and not so much the stuff that, you know, is happening right this second when it comes to our brand. Now it could be different for a smaller, more localized builders, of course, but for what we're operating, it's definitely a brand position and a messaging position that has been a different structure.

Greg Bray: So Mark, what is one thing about digital marketing that you wish you had learned a long time ago?

Mark Hirschfeld: In the beginning of anyone's digital marketing experience, it can seem overwhelming just the sheer amounts of like the technical side of things, [00:19:00] but really just getting into it and like taking time to like break it down. You know, and jumping in feet first I think was a thing that I wish I would've done a little earlier in my career, and even things that I think, we should be integrated more into secondary education things.

Whether it's understanding Google Analytics and Google Ads is the new media buying. So, are you being prepared for that in your first entry-level job? Taking ownership of those things, I think is something that I would encourage all new marketers to do earlier in their career. I know it's kind of cliche to like, you know, don't wait for someone to tell you what to do. Just go start digging through the data. Try to make your own, you know, inferences from these different patterns and see what makes sense to you, and just ask questions. I love curiosity and I think being curious is one of the best things you can be as a marketer.

Greg Bray: When you guys are looking for new members to join your team, are you finding that they don't have some of those more technical skills? Like they haven't learned the details of analytics because schools aren't really teaching that yet, and we need to do that kind of on our [00:20:00] own as opposed to as part of the class, so to speak, or what's been in your experience?

Mark Hirschfeld: Yeah. I mean, I think that's why there's been such an advent of like Google and Facebook offering these sort of like get Google Ad certified with us and take our continuing education classes. In my opinion, in any sort of like advertising or marketing program or business school, like those are the main machines that we are using to drive our industry. They should be taught just alongside people using Excel, in those processes.

So, I think, it's not that people aren't coming in knowing them. I think people come in with a loose understanding. I think understanding how to search to put things on Google is akin to using the telephone. I would expect anybody to know how to use Google in some capacity to find what they're looking for, but just, you know, making sure that people are asking, how is this working? Being curious in their searches will then put them on that path to understanding the analytics better through the good help.

I think it's important that we try as marketing leaders to empower the people on our teams to take ownership of different avenues of our strategy. I want to have people on the team that I [00:21:00] can rely on for, you know, whether it's email or content or traditional. Your team won't perform well if you're trying to play every position on the field. I need to be able to rely on someone for information and best practices, and I really strive to provide that for our marketing team.

Greg Bray: So, as you think about the way that you guys do campaigns and measure. Somebody comes to you and says, gosh, we had these high expectations for this campaign and it just didn't happen. How would you suggest they go about diagnosing that or trying to peel back what worked and what didn't?

Mark Hirschfeld: Yeah. I always like to work backwards from that. So, in my structure, I would look at, okay, so what did we do the day before, three days before, five days before, and where did the things fall apart? 'Cause in a perfect world, we should be seeing these things fall apart before the campaign gets to the finish line. Right? If you're doing that after the first time, you'll notice them happening earlier in the process the next time, so you can make those changes. So, you won't be sitting there at the end of the campaign [00:22:00] going, we thought this was gonna be great, and here we are with nobody coming into the model, no sales to speak for it. How are we gonna handle this?

So, how can we use that as a time to like work backwards? What processes did we do and did we see these sort of like warning signs happening beforehand? Now that we've identified them, whether it was creative, whether it was budget, product, price, how can we make sure those pieces don't go wrong the next time? That's, I think, a big piece of what I try to assess is, the horse is already outta the barn and it's important for us to try to just, I don't know, there's a mixed bag of metaphors there you can probably piece apart, but.

Greg Bray: But did the Buffalo go with him? That's the question. The horse is outta the barn, but where's the Buffalo? Come on, Kevin. You gotta gimme something on the Buffalo there, man.

Kevin Weitzel: As much as I want to, I cannot, my brain is completely blank. I wanted to jump on that Buffalo line so bad, but I just couldn't come up with anything.

Greg Bray: Mark, you've accomplished something that very few of our guests have done.

Mark Hirschfeld: I've stumped him.

Kevin Weitzel: It's hard to get Kevin to shut up.

Greg Bray: Well, Mark, we appreciate your time and all the things you've shared with us. Just [00:23:00] a couple last questions for you. When you talked about trying to stay up on new things and you know, all the learning that goes on with today's marketing, what are some of the places you go for the learning or some of the sources that you look to to stay current?

Mark Hirschfeld: Yeah, I mean, resources like this are great. Your podcast is a fantastic resource I go to all the time. The folks at Do You Convert have a great resource tool set. One thing that I make all of our marketing team members do and online sales team do is on their onboarding, we have everyone make a fake email account and they are responsible for every month signing up for new brands in our industry and outside of our industry that they think are doing cool marketing initiatives.

That way everyone has a separate inbox that's just getting email collateral, branding pieces that they like or don't like, and that helps us navigate where we're getting inspiration from and how we can put the Maronda lens on any of these things that leaders are doing outside of our industry. Whether it's from the automotive industry, fashion, lifestyle living, things like that, vacations. I get a lot of inspiration from things [00:24:00] happening both inside of our industry and outside.

Another great way I think to get inspiration is just when you find someone or something that is doing a marketing piece, you really like, tell them. Message them on LinkedIn. I've had great inspirational and like, wellsprings of ideas come from conversations. Whether it's at a conference or just interacting with someone on LinkedIn through a, hey, I saw this marketing campaign you did. I thought it was awesome, and next thing you know, we're talking about our ideas together and getting inspiration, 'cause marketing can be a little siloed at times and it's important to really break out of that if you can.

Greg Bray: Awesome thoughts. I love the idea of the separate email account. That's not one I've heard before. Keeps it kind of out of your day-to-day. Keeps it out of the way, but yet you can go look at it and check on ideas when you have that time to do it.

Kevin Weitzel: So, you gonna stand there and tell me that jiveturkey@gmail.com is not a legitimate person?

Mark Hirschfeld: Hey, I have a realtor burner account. I have a home shopper burner account. We're all about the personalization of the digital experience. I want to make sure these people are hitting the right [00:25:00] markets.

Greg Bray: Well, Mark, as we wrap up, do you have any last words of advice that you wanted to share with our listeners today before we finish?

Mark Hirschfeld: One thing that has really helped our team as we navigate, you know, our team works remote 10 online concierges, across three different states, marketing team that's completely remote, having a really strong project management software tool can be really helpful in making sure you're staying on task. That's something that we implemented maybe like a year and a half ago. It's made our work with independent contractors more effective. It's allowed me to better assess manpower and resources. It's also helped us create like standardized project templates, so we're not just doing the old classic marketing fire drill at three o'clock on a Friday 'cause there's some sort of release that's happening that fell through the cracks.

So, taking the time to set up projects the right way and then having those resources to go through when you're doing new community releases, new product releases, new campaign releases can be really effective. Setting that foundation, I think, is gonna be really important as we prepare for what will become the new changes to our industry that happen all the time. Whether [00:26:00] it's Apple's new independent walled garden ad platform that we all know is coming. Not if, but when. Do we have these foundational pieces set up with our data? Are we prioritizing first-party data appropriately so that when these changes happen, we can be proactive instead of reactive and that's something that we strive to do here, or at least I strive to do here as a department?

Greg Bray: Well, Mark, we have to ask what project management tool are you're using.

Mark Hirschfeld: We use a project management tool called Asana which is very helpful, but I'm sure any one of them are very good, but we've had good success with them.

Greg Bray: Awesome. Well, we'll give them a shout-out 'cause they do do good work. Well, Mark, if people who are listening want to connect with you and get in touch, what's the best way for them to reach out?

Mark Hirschfeld: LinkedIn is probably the easiest. Just a message on LinkedIn would be great. I'm always happy to chat marketing ideas with anybody who wants to spend a couple minutes.

Greg Bray: Well, thank you so much, Mark, for spending time with us, and thank you everybody for listening today to The Home Builder Digital Marketing Podcast. I'm Greg Bray with Blue Tangerine.

Kevin Weitzel: I'm Kevin Weitzel with OutHouse. Thank you.